SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 In my state the age for compulsory attendance starts at 7 - does that mean DS has to be enrolled the school year that begins after he turns 7 or the school year in which he will be turning 7? Can I just .. I don't know .. not do school with him until then? I was setting out to do school with him this year. He'd be entering kindergarten agewise. He's almost done with phonics and is reading. He is beyond kindergarten level math. He prints quite neatly for his age and gender and enjoys writing. He would like to learn cursive. Likes memorizing poems and such. Ok, well, he pretty much enjoys everything except math. Even I'm beginning to hate math. Enough to not want to homeschool for as long as I legally can get away with it. When did children classically start doing math anyway? Weren't they 8 or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 In my state the age for compulsory attendance starts at 7 - does that mean DS has to be enrolled the school year that begins after he turns 7 or the school year in which he will be turning 7? You need to read the law carefully and know what it says. In NC, for example, you notify the Division of Non Public Education when your first child has his 7th bday, regardless of what time of year it is. Most commonly, a child is considered compulsory school age if he has that birthday by a cut-off date, e.g., a child who is 6 by December 2 in California must be enrolled in school for that school year. Can I just .. I don't know .. not do school with him until then? I was setting out to do school with him this year. He'd be entering kindergarten agewise. He's almost done with phonics and is reading. He is beyond kindergarten level math. He prints quite neatly for his age and gender and enjoys writing. He would like to learn cursive. Likes memorizing poems and such. Ok, well, he pretty much enjoys everything except math. Even I'm beginning to hate math. Enough to not want to homeschool for as long as I legally can get away with it. You can try to avoid doing Official School Stuff, but I doubt you'll be able to keep him from learning. :-) When did children classically start doing math anyway? Weren't they 8 or something? Well, maybe they didn't have a school book before then, but they were learning to count and recognize numbers and use money and tell time...all sorts of arithmetic-y things. They weren't just sitting in bubbles totally unexposed to arithmetic concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 You need to read the law carefully and know what it says. In NC, for example, you notify the Division of Non Public Education when your first child has his 7th bday, regardless of what time of year it is. Most commonly, a child is considered compulsory school age if he has that birthday by a cut-off date, e.g., a child who is 6 by December 2 in California must be enrolled in school for that school year. Yes, I keep going over the law .. very slowly .. apparently I need a translator. I've shot off an email to a local homeschooler - perhaps they can explain it to my thick head. You can try to avoid doing Official School Stuff, but I doubt you'll be able to keep him from learning. :-) You're right, he'll learn. Just as he has learned everything until now without a formal curriculum. Anything reading, writing or math related wasn't effortless on my part, however. Well, maybe they didn't have a school book before then, but they were learning to count and recognize numbers and use money and tell time...all sorts of arithmetic-y things. They weren't just sitting in bubbles totally unexposed to arithmetic concepts. He already knows that stuff and more. I don't know how to go forward .. or if I even want to .. that's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Which state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Which state? NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 NC Ok. When your oldest dc has his 7th bday, you notify DNPE. Actually, I'd recommend joinINg HSLDA first, *then* notifying DNPE. Oh, and FTR, I'd keep your dc's "grade level" that of whatever he'd be in if he were in school (IOW, the fall when he's 6, he'd be in first grade...depending on his birthday and the cut-off for school entry; the homeschool law doesn't mention that, so you'd have to call your local public school and ask). The law in NC is pretty straight forward; however, DNPE is notorious for inventing new rules and policies that are not required by law, the most recent kerfluffle being requiring parents to use an on-line notificiation system. So I'd recommend HSLDA membership first, then following their recommendations. Personally, *I* would nto comply with any policy not required by law; HSLDA would defend me on that. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ok, I appreciate the recommendations. I need to remember to look into the HSLDA stuff rather than just gleaning from the little (good or bad) I read on the forums. I'm just still confused about whether we're supposed to be doing school with him at the time we notify or not until the school year that follows. Not that it ultimately matters, I suppose. It's not like we'll be keeping him in a box until then - he'll be learning something - I'm just not sure if it will be math at this point. :glare: Hey Ellie, you don't happen to have a WRTR equivalent (one book, low cost, comprehensive, multi-learning style) for math that you could recommend, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I guess it varies state to state. Where I live, compulsory school age is 8, and we have to file the school year that the child is 8 BY the cutoff date. So for example, my son will turn 8 in November of 2013, and I won't have to file for him until the following school year, since he will have missed the September cutoff date. He'll be nearly 9 by the time I have to file for him which is kind of nice. And sure you can put off formal schooling with him until then if you really want to. I'm sure he'll learn lots of stuff anyway and there's a whole school of thought that it's better to wait and that they tend to learn faster/be more developmentally ready if you wait a bit longer (see the book "Better Late Than Early" by the Moores for example- whose parenting advice I take with a grain of salt but whose educational philosophies have given me some food for thought). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Perhaps since math is something I get, my expectations are just too high. He just doesn't make sense to me. One second he's doing mental math all over the place, the next he's acting like he was just asked to solve the U.S. debt problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Even once you are officially registered for homeschooling (whatever age that may be), you don't have to teach using textbooks, worksheets, or formal/commercial curricula if you don't wish to do so. Throughout dd's elementary years I didn't use any textbooks, and didn't use a traditional math curricula at all. She learned through lots and LOTS of games, stacks and stacks of picture and chapter books, activity-based math (with paper work of some kind gradually added in, but only the barest handful of regular worksheets until 6th grade or so), toys, science kits, programs at the zoo, lots of trips to museums and other types of field trips. I've posted quite a lot about the resources we used, but for the younger years they included: Peggy Kaye's marvelous books Games For Math, Games For Reading, etc. ThinkFun games, board games of all kinds Marilyn Burns activities and lessons, lots of math picture books -- http://www.mathsolutions.com Steve Spangler science, Wild Goose science, all kinds of kits LegoTechnic, other Lego stuff Chicken Socks and then Klutz books (science, geography, fine motor skills, art) wooden world map countries, a big map we used for all kinds of activities such as tying yarn from specific places to hand-drawn covers of books dd read that took place in that country or city, maps of where dog breeds originated, anything and everything like that, a 3-D map of our neighborhood, etc. GEMS science -- http://www.lawrencehallofscience.org/GEMS -- this was mostly 3rd - 6th grades and was tinkered with a lot, mostly by adding activities I found on the internet and field trips kids' plays and musical performances for kids free activities at local art museums huge numbers of audiobooks Most of these materials covered pretty well exactly the same standards the state required us to fulfill (we homeschooled through a city charter at the time). But gradually dd got way, way ahead in some areas, and I waited on others (such as multiplying and dividing fractions, which she then picked up in about an hour total). We now file as an independent private school so that I do not feel hampered by standard requirements for a non-standard child. And just to reassure you: dd (15) was able to move with no trouble whatever to a conventional algebra textbook and a physics textbook in 8th grade; she reads a wide variety of books including, this summer, the unabridged Don Quixote (in an 18th-century translation, no less); loves to write; and is using college-level Teaching Company lectures for political and literary history. So unless you have a fiercely prescriptive state, it's possible to do informal schooling for a number of years and gradually move into more conventional schoolwork as your child -- and you -- become ready for it. It doesn't handicap them or put them "behind" or make them unable to buckle down and work; after all, they are working, just not with standard materials. I hope you find a path that suits you and your son! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 He's very young. Maybe you just need to give him more time in the math department. It's really not unusual for little ones to seem to understand a concept one day and then forget it the next. He's young enough at this point that I wouldn't let the fact that he isn't mastering math concepts deter me from teaching him math. Sometimes it takes many, many times of exposure to a topic before it is set in concrete in their minds. Are you using a specific program with him now? There are tons of math programs out there that are gentle introductions. It will depend on what type of program you are looking for. Spiral, mastery, semi-spiral. Traditional, conceptual, a mix. Do you want something with a lot of manipulatives integrated into the lessons or one that you can adapt the lessons to best suite your teaching style or the level of instruction you need for that particular topic. Gently, I would say that if you are just now embarking on the homeschooling journey and you are already having this much stress over math, you may want to back up and evaluate things. There is no reason why you can't put off heavy math instruction until you feel he is ready for it but that doesn't mean you still can't go ahead and start homeschooling him. Homeschooling means working at the pace of your student not at the pace set forth by a program or institution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I guess it varies state to state. Where I live, compulsory school age is 8, and we have to file the school year that the child is 8 BY the cutoff date. 50 states, 50 different laws :-) And sure you can put off formal schooling with him until then if you really want to. I'm sure he'll learn lots of stuff anyway and there's a whole school of thought that it's better to wait and that they tend to learn faster/be more developmentally ready if you wait a bit longer (see the book "Better Late Than Early" by the Moores for example- whose parenting advice I take with a grain of salt but whose educational philosophies have given me some food for thought). NC doesn't have any requirements for proving academic achievement, so she can put off formal education as long as she wants to (NC requires annual testing, but no requirement to show those to anyone, no requirement for percentile/grade level or anything). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpnick in nc Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm going through the NCDNPE registration now so I think I have a handle on it. From the website FAQs: "Required for 5/6 year olds? (about Notice of Intent) No. If your child will not turn age seven during the current</B> school year (which runs from July 1 through the following June 30), you will not file a Notice of Intent with DNPE for this school term. ... Within 30 days preceding the child's seventh birthday, the school will need to be registered with DNPE -- by no later than the child's seventh birthday." All NC requires that you have: immunization, attendance, testing (before 8th bday and yearly thereafter). Under current policy, it doesn't look like they will ever ask about math curriculum, how long you spent on math/lesson/week during the age of 7, etc. It looks like they will only look at the records required by state law. They would have no reason to ask you what you did before the age of 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 All NC requires that you have: immunization, attendance, testing (before 8th bday and yearly thereafter). Under current policy, it doesn't look like they will ever ask about math curriculum, how long you spent on math/lesson/week during the age of 7, etc. It looks like they will only look at the records required by state law. They would have no reason to ask you what you did before the age of 7. The only thing DNPE is allowed to see by law is the standardized test scores, regarldess of what new "policy" they come up with. Policy is not the same as law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 KarenAnne, that was so helpful and just plain relieving to read. DS seems just fine with formal LA but math is killing us. There is something about how it is being presented that is confusing him and he's not able to express what's going on with him and I'm not able to figure it out and it's frustrating me to death. He appears to GET it and then he doesn't .. and I can't find the variable. I think a less formal approach to math might help ME chill out. He's really smart but I think my expectations are all off and we need to just approach this whole thing differently. I'm going to check these ideas out and give them a try. He's very young. Maybe you just need to give him more time in the math department. It's really not unusual for little ones to seem to understand a concept one day and then forget it the next. He's young enough at this point that I wouldn't let the fact that he isn't mastering math concepts deter me from teaching him math. Sometimes it takes many, many times of exposure to a topic before it is set in concrete in their minds. Are you using a specific program with him now? There are tons of math programs out there that are gentle introductions. It will depend on what type of program you are looking for. Spiral, mastery, semi-spiral. Traditional, conceptual, a mix. Do you want something with a lot of manipulatives integrated into the lessons or one that you can adapt the lessons to best suite your teaching style or the level of instruction you need for that particular topic. Gently, I would say that if you are just now embarking on the homeschooling journey and you are already having this much stress over math, you may want to back up and evaluate things. There is no reason why you can't put off heavy math instruction until you feel he is ready for it but that doesn't mean you still can't go ahead and start homeschooling him. Homeschooling means working at the pace of your student not at the pace set forth by a program or institution. Thank-you! That's what I needed to hear. Currently I'm using Math Mammoth 1A. He's doing well with it apart from the inconsistency with doing it mentally one moment, needing manipulatives the next .. for basically the same problem. The problem is no doubt my expectations rather than the curriculum. I don't think it's expecting him to have them down at this point but I just don't get why he doesn't if he did it yesterday and this morning - why not now? I'm relieved to know this isn't unusual though. That's what I needed - a reality check. I do have Miquon on hand and I'm wondering if taking a detour with that and some games and books is what we (I) need. Not to abandon MM, just to help me chill out and explore things from a different angle. Perhaps I should pull out my Beechick books too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm going through the NCDNPE registration now so I think I have a handle on it. From the website FAQs: "Required for 5/6 year olds? (about Notice of Intent) No. If your child will not turn age seven during the current</B> school year (which runs from July 1 through the following June 30), you will not file a Notice of Intent with DNPE for this school term. ... Within 30 days preceding the child's seventh birthday, the school will need to be registered with DNPE -- by no later than the child's seventh birthday." So, if DS turns 7 in the middle of the next school year - will I have to file a notice of intent for that school year (1st grade, 2012-2013)? Or will I not file the notice of intent until the following year when he is already 7 and turning 8? Or will I file the notice of intent when I register with DNPE -- OR is that the same thing (the notice of intent/registering)? Gah! I'm sorry for being so thick. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 So, if DS turns 7 in the middle of the next school year - will I have to file a notice of intent for that school year (1st grade, 2012-2013)? Or will I not file the notice of intent until the following year when he is already 7 and turning 8? Or will I file the notice of intent when I register with DNPE -- OR is that the same thing (the notice of intent/registering)? Gah! I'm sorry for being so thick. :tongue_smilie: Ignore "school year." Just file when your dc turns 7. The NOI has nothing to do with "school year." It is totally dependent on when your dc's 7th bday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I think inconsistency at this age is totally normal. Brain development in kids doesn't happen in a steady, clear progression unless you average everything out. Kids are always learning, forgetting, relearning and so forth. Also, young children have much better long term memories than short term - which is why they can learn about something and seem to understand it, then have completely forgotten it the next day, but suddenly remember it very well a few weeks later. All annoying for us as parents and teachers, but... hey, whatcha gonna do? :D Most people on this board start formal schooling at kindy or even before but if you visited other sorts of homeschooling groups, you might find very different answers. I think, regardless of the laws, you can start formal schooling whenever *you* feel is right. Unschoolers may never start the sort of "formal" learning that you refer to. And many more eclectic types indeed don't start until children are more like 8 or 9 or even older. Doesn't mean you won't be teaching and your child won't be learning, of course! But if you want to wait on formal programs, then sure. Go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 SCGS, Okay, MM is a wonderful program; I'm using it with ds5 and dd8. Dd8 is having a similar problem with rounding. One day she can tell me, verbally while we are making a game out of it, what 347 rounds to (the nearest 10 or 100) and then the next day when we do it just on the paper she struggles as if we haven't even covered that concept at all. I don't stress about it...I just go over the same problem again with manipulatives, or in the scope of a game. She will get it eventually. MM is great for working at your own pace and even moving onto some different topics, such as time, measurement or money and then going back to the other topic after a few weeks. I usually do all of the lessons in a way that covers all of the learning styles (auditory, visual, kinesthetic) until I can tell that they get the concept and can do the problem without any help directly on the paper. Sometimes though that may mean we don't gain mastery for weeks or even over a month. Honestly, at this age you are going to have lots and lots of opportunities to revisit all of these concepts over and over again. He will get it eventually. I wanted to note too that if you ever have problems getting your ds to understand a concept and you want to know if there are any other ways you might be able to explain it, or need reassurance that you can move on you can e-mail Maria at Math Mammoth. I've never had to e-mail her personally but I've heard over and over again that she is extremely helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ignore "school year." Just file when your dc turns 7. The NOI has nothing to do with "school year." It is totally dependent on when your dc's 7th bday. Thank-you! The clouds have parted! :lol: Farrar, those are things I needed reminding of. I had entirely lost perspective. Thank-you for your encouraging response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Aime, that's encouraging to know and some great ideas I'm going to try out or keep in mind for future need. I know I wouldn't have ever thought of contacting Maria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpnick in nc Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 So, if DS turns 7 in the middle of the next school year - will I have to file a notice of intent for that school year (1st grade, 2012-2013)? Or will I not file the notice of intent until the following year when he is already 7 and turning 8? Or will I file the notice of intent when I register with DNPE -- OR is that the same thing (the notice of intent/registering)? Gah! I'm sorry for being so thick. :tongue_smilie: Ignore "school year." Just file when your dc turns 7. The NOI has nothing to do with "school year." It is totally dependent on when your dc's 7th bday. :iagree: with Ellie. And yes, the noi is the 'registration.' Don't feel thick. It has taken me a few readings of DNPE's website to realize and feel sure that, yes, that really is all NC law requires me to do and no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 :iagree: with Ellie. And yes, the noi is the 'registration.' Don't feel thick. It has taken me a few readings of DNPE's website to realize and feel sure that, yes, that really is all NC law requires me to do and no more. It's been more than a few times for me. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyR Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Sure you could. Its called Unschooling. LOL You go by the child's interest and don't use a formal curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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