Getting Started; need support and lots of loving, bossy advice :)

[Guest furrjen]

I am in love with WTM, but since cannot home school full time. I would like to supplement my kids' learning after school, which is why I'm here.

 

A few specific questions:

 

My eldest child is 10 and will be going into 5th grade next year. They use Everyday Math at his school, and he seems to do okay with it, but he is having difficulty mastering mathematical concepts (of the "how to set up a problem" variety, I think.) I would like to supplement math at home. What are your suggestions? I am tempted to just find out if they're going to use Everyday Math in 5th grade as well and just buy the book for home, for simplicity's sake. I'm ignorant as to how Everyday Math would jibe with a different system.

 

And since we're on the subject, what's the big deal with Everyday Math? Why are some people so down on it? I am curious. I have no dog in the "fight."

 

Also, how would I start my 5th grader on history? Would I start with the fifth grade level, or start at the beginning with grade 1 (assuming that with summer vacation we can breeze through lessons and catch up to ihs age level eventually)? I am really impressed by the idea of repeating history twice at different depths of learning.

 

On to my daughter, who will be starting 1st grade: Should I work from texts that the school system is using, making my own modifications up, or using WTM AND the text she's using at school so I can understand the big picture of what's happening in the classroom.

 

I am really concerned with not confusing or over-burdening my kids.

 

I really am welcoming all insights and ideas. I don't mind getting advice AT ALL! :bigear:

 

I look forward to your replies. Thanks for reading!

[matilda]

My kids have been doing Every Day Math at school. My experience is that they cover most of the EDM book at school, so if you want to supplement, it might be better to add fact drills or a completely different program. We have been supplementing with Singapore at home.

 

For my afterschooling, I don't ever use the same things that they use at school. My purpose in afterschooling is to give them a different view point from the classroom.

 

You can just do WTM and use books from the library, if you want. For an easy history supplement, I have just given my DD SOTW, and she reads it on her own.

[Erika]

The good thing is your children are on the same history cycle. You can start both of them on the Ancient cycle. I use Saxon for math. I'm not sure if that would work for your son in 5th grade. But Saxon or Singapore would be a great start for your future 1st grader. I would also add First Language Lessons and Writing with Ease for your 1st grader. The lessons are short and sweet, and great WTM curriculums.

[Guest furrjen]

Should I start my 10 year old on the history of the world at his level, since that's how old he is? Or should I start him and his 6 year old sister on the first history of the world book which is at the first grade level?

 

Help.

 

Thank you for suggesting Saxon or Singapore. I have downloaded assessment tests for both to see where my kids "fit."

[Erika]

I think you should use the one age approriate for him. I was only saying they will at least both be in the Ancient period with the 5th grader using History of the Ancient World and the 1st grader using SOTW - Ancient Times.

[presley]

What a great link, Heigh Ho. Thanks for sharing it!

[ApronMama]

If you goal is developing a broad understanding of history and the flow of events, I think SOTW with supplemental reading is ideal for afterschooling, even with a 5th grader. You can listen to the CDs in the car and use the supplemental book lists in the activity guide to assign reading. You could skip the coloring pages and activities that seem underage. You might want to upgrade the mapwork for a 5th grader. But, if you goals is a deeper understanding, dates and names, you would probably want a different program.

 

As for math, definitely work on math facts unless your student needs extra challenge school doesn't provide.

[Persephone]

And since we're on the subject, what's the big deal with Everyday Math? Why are some people so down on it? I am curious.

I have several reasons for not liking EM, but here are some:

The homework assignments provide very little practice. Lots of time is spent reading the directions to figure out what is being asked, and we are lucky in that our dd is a good reader. I sometimes time how long it takes us to figure out what our dd is supposed to do. Then time how long she actually spends doing math. Later when she works on the afterschooling material (a combo of Singapore Math and Math Mammoth) I compare time spent. She does a LOT more math in far less time with SM or MM than with EM.

 

The next day's EM homework rarely is related to that of the night before.

 

The EM workbooks they use at school jump all over the place and don't provide the kind of systematic building up of knowledge that I see so clearly in both SM and MM.

 

I periodically try to figure out what EM will be covering in the coming months, so I can be sure to introduce the topics first. My dd never seems to get confused on the topics that I manage to introduce before EM does. But if EM comes first... not so good.

[BabyBre]

EM sucks. It's a program referred to as "fuzzy math," "reform," "discovery," "constructivist," etc, focused on constant and continuous discovery (or figuring out) and none of the mastery of concepts or basic skills through repeated practice. By grade 5, students are trying to build on very weak foundations. Without significant teacher or parent intervention, these programs result in middle and high schoolers who still need to figure the answers to basic math facts and do so by counting on their fingers or drawing pictures (tally marks and such) before they can go on to compute with fractions, percents, or other concepts that build on basic skills. I'm not exaggerating - I'm working with these kids in our community.

 

You need to begin right away with your 1st grader, and assess your 5th grader using Saxon or Singapore. They're both very strong programs when used as intended, and are in stark contrast to EM and other reform programs in their approach. You'll likely need to approach it as a completely different type of math with your 5th grader, and you'll want to start him a level or two below his grade level to reteach to him the concepts he's only learned in "fuzzy" ways. He will probably find it tedious and may be resistant, but it is for the best. If he's not naturally mathematically minded, picking things up seemingly without effort, these efforts now may save him down the road.

 

Watch this video about EM methods

and search the forums for the countless threads about Everyday Math.

 

How's that for bossy? ;)

[Spy Car]

EM sucks. It's a program referred to as "fuzzy math," "reform," "discovery," "constructivist," etc, focused on constant and continuous discovery (or figuring out) and none of the mastery of concepts or basic skills through repeated practice. By grade 5, students are trying to build on very weak foundations. Without significant teacher or parent intervention, these programs result in middle and high schoolers who still need to figure the answers to basic math facts and do so by counting on their fingers or drawing pictures (tally marks and such) before they can go on to compute with fractions, percents, or other concepts that build on basic skills. I'm not exaggerating - I'm working with these kids in our community.

 

You need to begin right away with your 1st grader, and assess your 5th grader using Saxon or Singapore. They're both very strong programs when used as intended, and are in stark contrast to EM and other reform programs in their approach. You'll likely need to approach it as a completely different type of math with your 5th grader, and you'll want to start him a level or two below his grade level to reteach to him the concepts he's only learned in "fuzzy" ways. He will probably find it tedious and may be resistant, but it is for the best. If he's not naturally mathematically minded, picking things up seemingly without effort, these efforts now may save him down the road.

 

Watch this video about EM methods

and search the forums for the countless threads about Everyday Math.

 

How's that for bossy? ;)

 

The problem without the Weather Lady is the "procedural math" she is pressing for is as "shallow" as the reform math she rails against is "fuzzy."

 

At the end of the day she endorses Singapore Math and there I agree, but not because it is a "procedure-only math program" which is all she focuses on in the video. Mastering the standard algorithm (while necessary) is not a sufficient math education for the 21st Century.

 

To the OP. Don't use Saxon Math or you will kill a child with the burden endlessly repeating (and very time consuming) math work that is so strangely organized that endorers of the program caution parents if their student don't do it all they are set up for failure.

 

Singapore is a great program for after schooling, but you are a starting very late. Fortunately it is a program that can potentiall be worked through quickly and compacted, but you might need to go back to 3A/B.

 

Start the young one now.

 

Bill

[BabyBre]

You'll likely need to approach it as a completely different type of math with your 5th grader.

 

 

 

I want to clarify that you'll want to approach it this way with him because the more traditional methods that are taught in Saxon or Singapore are not taught in EM at all and will likely be confusing at first and completely foreign to him. My kids are taught these traditional and usually more efficient methods at home long before they see the fuzzy math counterparts in the classroom. Most of their teachers don't have any problem with their using whatever method they prefer (and that's usually the one they've already mastered at home).

 

 

To the OP. Don't use Saxon Math or you will kill a child with the burden endlessly repeating (and very time consuming) math work that is so strangely organized that endorers of the program caution parents if their student don't do it all they are set up for failure.

 

 

 

 

While Saxon does have what some (including myself) consider an extreme amount of repetitive practice, I stand by the program. In no way do we even come close to completing all the practice and problem sets as prescribed. Of course, I'm constantly assessing my dc's progress and assigning whatever practice as I deem necessary - about half of what the program includes. We've had great success in combating our district's fuzzy math using Saxon at home this way.

 

That excessive practice is actually what I like about Saxon over Singapore. When we used Singapore, I didn't feel it included enough practice, and it's far easier for me to leave assignments out than it is to supplement and add them in.

 

I consider both programs excellent.

[Spy Car]

While Saxon does have what some (including myself) consider an extreme amount of repetitive practice, I stand by the program. In no way do we even come close to completing all the practice and problem sets as prescribed. Of course, I'm constantly assessing my dc's progress and assigning whatever practice as I deem necessary - about half of what the program includes. We've had great success in combating our district's fuzzy math using Saxon at home this way.

 

That excessive practice is actually what I like about Saxon over Singapore. When we used Singapore, I didn't feel it included enough practice, and it's far easier for me to leave assignments out than it is to supplement and add them in.

 

I consider both programs excellent.

 

I would consider Saxon cruel and unusual punishment on top of a full school day and homework (and I'm hardly undemanding when it come to the amount of math done in our home). I just prefer materials that are not as spirit-killing as Saxon.

 

Singapore develops a very strong math model via a logical sequence of skill building. The word problem solving skills a child is introduced to are perhaps the best in the world, and it also develops superb mental-math skills. With the IP books it builds critical thinking and logic. Plus Singapore is fun to learn and teach.

 

Saxon has no model that I've ever been able to discern, and the sequence is so scatter-shot that one could go mad trying to follow the progression of how they are trying to teach any given topic. A child who does Saxon ought to be able to "compute" math problems using the standard algorithms, but that is a pretty low-bar for all the drudgery required.

 

Bill

[MHowell]

I would consider Saxon cruel and unusual punishment on top of a full school day and homework (and I'm hardly undemanding when it come to the amount of math done in our home). I just prefer materials that are not as spirit-killing as Saxon.

 

Singapore develops a very strong math model via a logical sequence of skill building. The word problem solving skills a child is introduced to are perhaps the best in the world, and it also develops superb mental-math skills. With the IP books it builds critical thinking and logic. Plus Singapore is fun to learn and teach.

 

Saxon has no model that I've ever been able to discern, and the sequence is so scatter-shot that one could go mad trying to follow the progression of how they are trying to teach any given topic. A child who does Saxon ought to be able to "compute" math problems using the standard algorithms, but that is a pretty low-bar for all the drudgery required.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I am starting to afterschool my DD (5) this year and was thinking of using Saxon. Her public school uses California Mathematics by Macmillan/McGraw-Hill, and last year never completed fractions or decimals. She needs a lot of work to be at grade level and thought since she was not getting these basics taught at school I would need a stronger program at home. He home work load usually only takes her a hour to complete the entire weeks worth so I figured one hour of afterschooling wouldn't be too much, and we could move around the times as needed (30 minutes after school, 30 minutes after dinner). She is also getting very little in writing and literature so I was going to use the other 30 minutes to cover history and roll all of those into one. On Fridays she gets out an hour earlier so I was thinking adding a 30 minute science program on Fridays.

 

Am I crazy? Does that even make sense? With Saxon I think I can do as said before and do less of the repetitive work once mastered as opposed to having to find a way to add more work when needed.

[BabyBre]

Am I crazy? Does that even make sense? With Saxon I think I can do as said before and do less of the repetitive work once mastered as opposed to having to find a way to add more work when needed.

 

 

:iagree: Works great for us.

[Spy Car]

Bill, I am starting to afterschool my DD (5) this year and was thinking of using Saxon. Her public school uses California Mathematics by Macmillan/McGraw-Hill, and last year never completed fractions or decimals. She needs a lot of work to be at grade level and thought since she was not getting these basics taught at school I would need a stronger program at home. He home work load usually only takes her a hour to complete the entire weeks worth so I figured one hour of afterschooling wouldn't be too much, and we could move around the times as needed (30 minutes after school, 30 minutes after dinner). She is also getting very little in writing and literature so I was going to use the other 30 minutes to cover history and roll all of those into one. On Fridays she gets out an hour earlier so I was thinking adding a 30 minute science program on Fridays.

 

Am I crazy? Does that even make sense? With Saxon I think I can do as said before and do less of the repetitive work once mastered as opposed to having to find a way to add more work when needed.

 

I think the way topics are taugh in Singapore is much more focused and concise. Saxon teaches in small "increments," which for me (and many students and parents) makes it very hard to see the big picture. Instead there is an emphasis on repetition of small step and a focus on procedure.

 

This works for some people and drives others to distraction. To my mind there is plenty of "work" in Singapore. The difference is the topic is taught clearly up front, and students then apply (and deepen) their skill doing problems. But they don't try to teach via doing endless exercises.

 

Being smart and efficient is really important when you are after-schooling. Use what you will, but many Saxon advocates say the program can not (should not) be compacted and that the practice of doing only half the problem is the road to ruin. I dunno.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 

Bill

Edited June 20, 2011 by Spy Car

[Roadrunner]

I vote for Singapore as well. We use it to afterschool my son. It has worked miracles in our house.

In fact the concepts are so well explained in SM that my son can do more than the program thought him. He can regroup and add/subtract beyond 100 even though we haven't covered it yet. He learned to do it up to a 100 in SM 1B and he took the concepts learned and applied them to higher numbers. He just finished public K and Singapore 1B. He turned 6 several months ago, so it's not his maturity. I absolutely attribute all his strength in math to Singapore's method of teaching. We are definitely sticking with the program and starting our 4 year-old this fall as well.I would also look into grammar. Our school doesn't teach grammar separately. They embed it into language arts, which I interpret as minimum instruction.

[umsami]

For supplemental math, I like Math Mammoth because you can buy the units/areas you're interested in. It's also super affordable. Singapore is great, but I think it's harder to transition into Singapore at the 5th grade level vs. 1st.

 

For a 1st grader, I'd probably go for either RightStart Level B or Singapore. I just love RightStart--and all of the manipulatives. It really makes math fun.

 

We also do additional copywork--which is sort of tied in to a character education program. IMHO, the public schools these days spend very little time on handwriting and it needs supplementation. DS1 wanted to learn cursive when he was in first, so I just picked up the Handwriting Without Tears cursive book for him. Worked great.