Any SN moms try Brave Writer "Foundations in Writing" online class?

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[PeterPan]

Yllek, you might see if you can borrow the notebook from someone first. I was able to look over my friend's for a week. Now I didn't read it QUITE as thoroughly as would have been ideal, but then I kept falling asleep. You can conclude for yourself whether it was Bogart's writing or that I haven't been sleeping enough (always possible). I did feel like she was preaching to the choir on this one and that I didn't learn that much new. There were a few good tips and things I wrote down, but most was pretty ho-hum. She spends a lot of time to say stuff, that's for sure. I hate that. More or less I felt like she was solving the problem that wasn't mine. So if it solves somebody else's problem, great. She just wasn't tackling the problems we have in our house.

 

I'd ask whether the online class is fleshing out the main BW stuff or expanding. I think if the class were *all* SN parents, then it would be more likely to be tailored. With just the materials, I didn't feel like it was so radically different from where I've ended up on my own just taking the principles of WTM and trying to apply them to the dc in front of me. But I must be a tad cynical, as other people find BW a lightbulb moment. For me, it was just this continual thought that she was solving a problem, just not *my* problem.

[Laurie]

Before this Foundations class was created there were two separate classes, copywork/dictation and freewriting. I only took her freewriting class. If I had to do it again I wouldn't. It's a fairly short amount of time and then there is a lot of encouragement to take additional classes.

I tend to agree with OhElizabeth.

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[PeterPan]

Well if all ya wanted was inspiration, why didn't you ask? :)

 

Back when my dd was in 1st grade, there really weren't all these curriculum options. There wasn't WWE. There were some others, but even CW was a novelty and brand new back then. And you know, I think it was better. The curricula make it sound like it's some formula: push them through and they'll be able to write. And the ps method (and ps spin-offs) with their list of fancy tasks each year (letter, report, haiku, tall tale, all in 2nd grade) make it sound like there's *something* out there we need to be doing, something we're missing. And of course we hate to miss anything!

 

So after how many years of homeschooling, I've concluded it lies in the DOING. If you listen to KarenAnne (only the most beautiful writer to have graced these boards, imho), it doesn't even matter so much WHAT the doing is. To me, WTM is the list of benchmarks, the specs, so you know you're roughly going forward with skills. But beyond that, it really doesn't matter if you do it straight as WTM says or mix it up to fit your quirky child. As long as we're doing 2 level outlines and writing (7th gr recs), it really doesn't matter if I'm outlining science or history or a lecture or doing a straight retelling or a children's book version, kwim? The concept is all the same. And I do think SWB is right with her admonition to short, frequent writings, especially for our kids. See we're trying to build fluency and ease, the ability to get their thoughts out without croaking. It's an actual therapy problem, not just a glitch of will. So in that sense we're the OPPOSITE of what BW is trying to solve with their writing schedule. That might work for regular kids, but it won't work for ours. She's not solving our problem.

 

I do think BW's variety is good. It's good because our kids are so creative and CRAVE that sort of thing. (Something WTM allows for but doesn't help with.) Her admonition to get them very much into the material before they try to write fits with what our kids need. They need it in their head, very *in* their head, so it can come out. Even there it doesn't contradict WTM, which wants to get the info in by reading and outlining. She's just showing you another way. You can also research to get it in. They just need to have this mental ownership to get it into the part where it can get processed and come out. Otherwise it's hanging over on the other side of the brain (seemingly), and the writing is like pulling teeth. But that's not all kids, and truly our hard cases do not make for good law.

 

Well I'm out of time. I'll be back later. Quick last thing. I attended a session by MCT about writing at the convention, and that was where it finally clicked in my mind that it's all about the DOING. Just pick something and do it. Pick three things and do them. Lots of little chunks with different approaches, working on different aspects of ease, fluency, voice, summarizing (not yet, more like 4th gr), outlining (5th+), etc. There are some programs that are particularly stellar in their analysis and approach, but even then I'm not convinced they're irreplaceable. The success lies in the doing.

[Laurie]

 

BTW, Elizabeth, I have The Writer's Jungle, and I'm just starting to read it. Since our homeschooling buddies tend to be unschoolers, I don't get to peek at different programs unless I buy them. :sad::001_rolleyes: I'm only a few pages in, but my general impression is that Bogart's approach seems to walk that line between the Charlotte Mason approach to writing development and the writing process model that I was taught. At the very least, Bogart's enthusiasm for writing makes her approach more accessible for me. The WWE model is practically robotic. The few times I tried it, ds looked at me as if I were insane. It's truly a departure from how I homeschool.

 

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I have The Writer's Jungle, too. Before you read anymore, I would suggest that you skip to Appendix I and see all the specific ideas for writing to do with your ds. Once you see the kinds of things you'll be doing then go back and read the rest of the book.

[rafiki]

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[RamonaQ]

 

I don't get how someone with memory issues, Dysgraphia, ADD, and Dyslexia can do literature quality copywork and dictation. I have those issues myself. We've tried it and it was torture.

 

For us copywork and dictation must be at a simpler level and combined with spelling. Apples and Pears does just that.

 

 

This has been my sense, too. My experience has been that my ds-- dyslexic/ dysgraphic-- requires very explicit teaching and strategies. Copywork alone wasn't enough enforce, say, punctuation. He required direct instruction, visual cues, and reminders to move to automaticity.

 

I use copywork/ dictation in a very directed way. I reinforce work that is being done in phonics/ spelling. I dictate sentences that focus on a particular skill (ie, controlled-r).

[PeterPan]

Just to dredge this up, Nan had some really good posts about dictation, etc. recently (do a search to find them) where she realized how easy it was to drop the ball once you got to a certain point. Her conclusion was that with some kids (ours) you have to RE-DO the basics, hitting them over and over again, just at the next level as the kids keep moving up. It's like you have to go back and do them over again at this new level and make everything explicit if you want it to happen. I've been a little too in the flurry of the moment, but I think this is something I'm going to have to think over. And as the others say, what success we've gotten with dictation or accuracy in spelling or punctuation HASN'T been easy or lightly gained. We try to come at it lots of ways, over and over again, with extreme patience. The VT was a real turning point for us, so we'll see how it works out for some of you who are more in-progress. We got gains after the VT was over. It's like it needed time for all these things to gel. We went back and RE-did that early material and tried to build with our new foundation. Things are clicking a lot better now. I wish I could say it makes everything easy (it doesn't), but at least some of the skills are better.

 

But yes, I've tortured her. 3-4 spelling programs at a time, a page of dictation a day, all before we ever did the VT. Not fun. Oh, you ought to see how many days in a row, WEEKS, we've been working on compound and complex sentences. I've broken out manipulatives. I've used my hands. I've.... At this point at least she finally accepts that I'm using specific words and explanations over and over again for a reason, lol... My lands. If I had a hairdryer to blow dry the toothpaste filling the holes in her brain, we'd get somewhere. ;)

Edited April 13, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Another quick ramble. I was looking over "Write with the Best" again, because somebody mentioned it on the K-8 board. I think the thing that hinders us in the *doing* is that these kids need so much more *structure* than we anticipate. I forgot to tell you the trick I learned at the AG booth at the convention! You need to see if they have a demo video or something. Basically they suggest writing it with the student, sentence by sentence. Dd was there and very captivated by the idea. I thought it wouldn't work, with the working memory and wanting to be alone and whatnot. I haven't tried it yet, but it was such a different idea, to go in with a clear structure expectation and do it together. It's on my hit list of ideas.

 

Very few programs I've found actually lay out the amount of structure I think some kids crave or need.

 

Well I'm out of time. Have fun pondering.

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[PeterPan]

Yllek, when my dd was that age we did the WTM-specified subject narrations (science, history, lit), rewrites of short fables (Milo Winter version of Aesop's is a good place to start), lots of oral dictation of her longer narrations and writings, and the Anti-Coloring books. Have you seen the Anti-Coloring books? They're FABULOUS. Check them out.

 

Next you might look for posts by KarenAnne. She thinks in the vein of what you're talking about, and she had a number of good resources she had suggested. I could go down a pull a couple if you want titles. There are books out there that do what you want, drawing out expression and writing without being tedious or contrived, admitting the kids have creativity and gifts even when it's hard to get the words out.

 

On your subject narrations, you draw a picture and write a sentence, a single sentence. When that is easy, write 2 sentences. When you work them up to a whole narration, take it for them by typing or writing. Let them write the first sentence and you write the rest. You ease them into it. Sometimes I had to listen to my dd's narration and write out the key words for her on the board so she could go back and write it. Now she just writes key words as she reads and she can write from them. The key is it has to be in their head.

 

I'll try to pull those books later. One was young enough for you to start now. Once you find one on amazon, it will put you in the vein of finding more. We've just started an Unjournaling book of prompts that is fun. Yesterday she was supposed to create whitty titles for an all black or all blue painting. Haha.

[PeterPan]

Uh yeah, took me 6 years to figure out that where SWB/WTM puts repetition, repetition, repetition I needed to put application, application, application. New, fresh, and interesting ways to work on the skill.

 

No, structure and learning style aren't exactly one in the same thing. Structure is clear expectations, limits, knowing what comes next. It means they can't just IMAGINE the forms up in their mind but actually need a clue about what is being asked of them. I realized I did it again to her today. I told her she could read xyz book and then either write a one-act play or a children's book on the topic. But I didn't give her any STRUCTURE!!! I screwed up, yes, even when I know.

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[PeterPan]

Write Away! by Krensky http://www.amazon.com/Write-Away-Grades-Stephen-Krensky/dp/059038208X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302729014&sr=1-1

 

Don't Forget to Write! http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Forget-Write-Enthralling-Effective/dp/0977084434

[PeterPan]

Totally agree with Michele that there are gender differences and just personality differences in how this stuff plays out. My dd is like pulling teeth to get it down, but what she writes is interesting, has voice, etc. I haven't taught a boy yet. We both agree that C/D/N, done without any whit or openness to the variety of applications possible where you get the skill without the tedium and with more interest, can suck the soul out of our kids. But when you look in WTM and see the progression of the narration skills (what I outlined as how we grew into narrations) what you see is a progression, something you can use with any application. If you know your goal is one sentence of output, then you can get that one sentence any way you want. The good thing is the permission to do *1 sentence* of output. I'm distinguishing skills from who you work on them.

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[PeterPan]

Yes, mercifully my dd only hyper-condenses when she's bored. It's not a constant thing.

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[NCW]

We've actually done three of the online BW classes. For us, they've been great. The instructors are highly skilled and personable, and take a LOT of time to answer every question, as well as give your child specific feedback on their writing. All of the courses that we've taken so far not only teach the child, but also teach the parent how to work with your individual child. The SLP who taught our course (I'm blanking on her name, but I could find it) also attended a continuing ed class in the middle of our online class, and started providing us with all kinds of new info from her professional education.

 

We have LOVED BW in our family. It is also very helpful to know the whole "narration" part is just interwoven into your family life by discussion of content - discuss the read-aloud, discuss the movie, discuss the sermon, whatever. We had always done that, anyway. Then when they're older, it's easier to distill into chunks they can write down. We're only beginning to use WWE now, mixing it in with our BW methods.

 

Tuesday Teatimes are a lot of fun. We used to do them with friends, before we moved and haven't restarted it...should do that again.

[PeterPan]

Yllek, narration is not natural to her, and unless the material is in her head it's very rough going. We totally gave up on CW Homer. I think you're going to have to let go of some of your expectations. WTM gives you a progression of stepped quantities that get you to where you need to be. If BW is inspiring you on ways to do that in your life, cool. I don't make it hard. I've just always had target skills in mind and tried to find ways throughout our day to work on them (application). Yes, we do a lot of dinner time narration. Any time I can sneak it in I do. Work on narrations while he's doing something with his hands (your SLP's trick). But no, I think between the dyslexia and a bit of probable dyspraxia (the OT didn't put it in the findings letter but had said it), it's unlikely this is ever going to get easy for her.

 

We're not working on narration specifically right now. You can take that as you will, but we've done it enough. At this stage it's apparent that, for us, continuing to harp on it wouldn't get us anywhere. I'm looking for fresh ways to get to the same point. The point is something on paper. These people don't even organize their brains the same, meaning it doesn't RETRIEVE the way WWE says it should.

 

Well I've got to put the toddler down for a nap. I just wanted to tell you you're not crazy. Put aside your preconceived notions. Find some basic quantity steps of output and work forward. Do it all throughout the day, in lots of ways (fiction, non-fiction, oral, written, from writing prompts, from imitation, from sources you read, from looking at clouds...). We narrate when I read aloud. We narrate when we watch tv (I'll purposely come back late from a bathroom break and ask what happened). It's just totally woven in with life, when you realize what you're trying to do (how much, what the goal is).

 

Of all those resources I listed to you, the Anti-Coloring Books are the lowest. Check them out. They can be either an art or written response. We've done them both ways, but they're a really good way to get the juices flowing for this age. Have him do a page each day, 3-5 days a week. I think when my dd was in 1st I set a goal of 1 page written a day. A page was just a page of notebook paper. So if our spelling took say 1/3 of a page and the anti-coloring book page had writing that would have filled another 1/3 of the page, then I knew I needed to do 1/3 page of dictation to round out that amount. When we had done that, we went up to 1 1/2 and eventually 2 pages of writing a day. Then her writing started getting smaller, so that we never got above that. That's how I scheduled with her for several years, because it gave me a way to quantify our work and expectations.

[PeterPan]

With my dd I try to discuss the writing enough that she has structure in her head before writing. My dh is sort of the opposite. He has this flow of ideas, a whole narrative, and he needs to be alone to get it out. Then you go back through it and make sure he has a clear outline and actually hit is points clearly. His writing tends to be more thematic and follow and illustration or narrative; it's actually very complex. I think you have to loosen up and wait for that to happen. Because of the dyslexia they make MORE connections, see more relationships, and actually have MORE inside to say. If you assume it has to follow a certain structure and push for that, you can sort of jump the gun on their maturity. That's why I'm trying to stay a bit balanced and not go too heavily one way or another but allow her more freedom and expression in her writing. I think there's something IN there that just needs time and maturity to come out.

 

That might not be true for every kid, but I think it is for mine. I'm just basing it on what I see in my dd. I don't think mature dyslexic writing is like other people's. They don't think the same, so they don't write the same.

[rafiki]

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[PeterPan]

Okay, perhaps I just don't get what narration is and what it's supposed to do. The examples that I've encountered make it sound like oral summary or oral comprehension questions. :confused: Trying to do oral summary here is just so painful, we've stopped entirely. Comprehension questions are easier for ds to do, but I find them to be really lame (many comprehension questions are, but I'm thinking specifically of the sort found the in the SOTW Activity Book and the like).

 

I understand, and now we're getting somewhere! Let me tell you a few stories. One, I was in college I used to tell these LONG involved narrations, unable to get anywhere for getting lost in so many side trails. My mind had so many thoughts and remembered so many things, I couldn't boil it down or get there efficiently. I used to say "to make a long story short..." over and over and over throughout the telling, TRYING to get to my goal, lol. I couldn't NARRATE. Fast forward to my dd's early years of audio books. We listened to the unabridged Narnia books a lot, and if you have, you'll recall the wonder scene where Shasta is told to stop interrupting while the girl retells in the grand Calormen style. In other ways, there are lots of WAYS to narrate. Jump a little further in time and spend a few years pecking on these boards. It clicks in your mind that you can narrate, not only with a purpose (to make them laugh, to encourage, to inform, to persuade), but with EFFICIENCY and economy. You can make the words so cutting and precise, they become like knives. You can boil them down to two word sentences that make people go wow. I'm not even saying people go wow at my posts so much, lol, so much as that it's POSSIBLE.

 

ALL of writing is narration. All of it is telling your thoughts. You might arrange those thoughts logically in a sequence in order to persuade. You might inject humor. You might embellish them. You might make them sharper (hyper-summarizing). It's all just different types of narration, whether it's Calormen story-telling or a persuasive essay or a book report or a book summary or a bored boy hyper-summarizing to get the assignment over with. And the key is to see where they're at and help them improve how they narrate. I don't think they go to full, mature narration in 0-60, just because we try to teach them, and I don't think it's some absolute, all or nothing. In fact, I DON'T think you need to narrate like SWB! My dd doesn't like SWB's writing. Is that ok to say? OF COURSE. Because there are different styles.

 

Janice had recently recommended some books on essays (there are compilations at your library), and I was flabbergasted as I read them to realize these essays, these fancy writings getting published, are just narrations. They're just better narrations, narrations where the person knew how to craft and refine and make it say exactly what he wanted it to say to accomplish his point.

 

So our goal is to help make it easier for them to get things out. Our goal is to make the technical and mechanical parts automatic so they don't have to think about them so hard when getting things out. And after enough years of that, they'll move from this technical stage to a content stage. You see seeds of that in 4th and 5th, where WTM suggests you start summarizing, as opposed to spitting out whatever they thought was important. You see it in junior high as they're encouraged (all this is in WTM) to insert their OPINION into their book writings. So we went from book narrations (retellings, whatever you thought was important) to book summaries (tell me the plot, have some logic and cohesion) to book reports (talk around a topic or theme and tell me what you thought about it). See the shift? You're still in the mechanical stage. If you worry about content and logic, you're moving into the logic stage too soon. If you worry about style, personal opinion, etc. you're moving even further into the logic stage too soon. WTM spells it out, exactly what amount of technical and personal to expect at each stage. It's all there.

 

So the way you remove SWB's personal style and insert your own (read I want my kid to become a Calormen storyteller or whatever) is to look at the AMOUNTS and the way the mechanical skills progress and then loosen it up. Same amounts, new task. Same goal for the mechnical expectations and the quantity, but you do some orally or you do it more creatively. You don't have to expect your dc to sound like SWB in WWE. WWE is NOT, NOT, NOT the only way to tell a story. Bet those Calormens would think SWB was a really crunchy story-teller, kwim? If you're raising a Calormen or a Spock, you really have to go with it and get out of them what you can get out of them. I haven't raised a Spock; I'm no help there. But I'm sure we don't have to all sound like WWE.

 

Is that helpful at all? It really shifted my goals to realize the BREADTH of writing styles, expression styles, narration styles, and to realize my dd is going to have her voice, her way, and that over time we'll make her more skillful and precise at using it. WTM even says this, that the goal is to let them narrate enough that they find their voice. I think people just get caught up in WWE and the workbooky, correct answer nature of it and think there's *a* way it's supposed to sound. There's not.

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[PeterPan]

No, I think you're getting there! Keep probing into this. See you are reading WTM with the assumption that *your* definition is what she's saying. Reread those chapters!!! Go back with a pen and paper and reread each grade level's narration tasks and see what WTM means. See a school teacher only teaches one grade, meaning she defines a term or task to fit what that grade can do. At home we're teaching over the years, so we have to see how that task buds, forms, and matures. Your definition only fit one year of the task. It doesn't reflect the entire spectrum. And your difficulty may lie simply in expecting your 6 yo to do something 6 yo's can't do, kwim? 6 yo's don't summarize. WTM says to begin summarizing in *4th grade*! It's a common, common complaint, or at least it used to be before WWE. Now everybody thinks it's just some formula, a Wonka Narration Factory that we push them through and they come out at the end, shizam, with all the bubbles washed off and perfect narrations. It doesn't work like that, lol.

 

Re-read WTM, pen and paper in hand. Start at the very beginning levels, in the LA and history and science (because the writing is hidden in all these) and write down what amount and type of writing she is expecting for 1st graders in history, 1st graders in science, 1st graders in LA. Then look at 2nd graders in history, 2nd graders in science, 2nd grader in LA, and so on. When I went through this, I never looked ahead. I still don't actually. (I don't want to get overwhelmed, hehe!) I just open to the grade I need, write down the amounts and types of writing expected in each subject, and try to figure out how I'm going to make those skill levels and quantities happen in the mix of materials I'm using.

 

After you do that, after you do your battle with WTM, then go back and listen to the audio cds PHP has for download. I've heard most of them at convention talks by now. The talks try to pull it together for you and get you to see the big picture. But for me, working through WTM that way has some value, because I GET it. It's not a flowchart I wrote down in a lecture. It actually makes sense to me because I know what we could write in 1st and what WTM wanted us to do, what we wrote in 2nd and what WTM wanted us to do, etc. It's all there, all the steps. You just have a few working assumptions you may need to loosen up and free your brain of. :)

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