choirfarm Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My question got lost in the thread. I understand what all of you are saying about math. But what do you do when 4 years of math are required? A child does Alg I in 8th grade, and then figures out in high school that they don't like math and won't go into a math field. Is Calculus REALLY for everyone? If not, then what would you or others consider a decent math for senior year. For me, I'm wondering if just redoing College Algebra or Trig would be ok at the CC. How would colleges look at that? But what about all of my friends in ps? I have had several whose children were in honors classes/AP classes only to discover their 10th or 11th grade year that their child hates math, is really a performing arts child or English major kind of child. They have been doing the college track, but are now stuck with how to get that 4th year of math in if they can't do Calculus. Personally, I have not missed never taking Calculus. I see that Algebra and Geometry are useful and I thought both of those classes were fun especially the proofs in Geometry. I moved to a new cutthroat school my junior year. Whereas everyone helped each other in my old school so that we could understand it, my new school was each man for the highest GPA as thousands of a point separated the first ten people. So TRIG/EA was a blur. I never really understood it. But I'm sure some of it was the move. Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My question got lost in the thread. I understand what all of you are saying about math. But what do you do when 4 years of math are required? A child does Alg I in 8th grade, and then figures out in high school that they don't like math and won't go into a math field. Is Calculus REALLY for everyone? If not, then what would you or others consider a decent math for senior year. For me, I'm wondering if just redoing College Algebra or Trig would be ok at the CC. How would colleges look at that? Christine, An unfortunate mindset has developed with math educators in the US. Several of us on this board refer to it as the "Rush to Calculus". As a consequence, there are people who believe that the whole of mathematics consists of a linear path with Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Calculus as stepping stones. In recent years, some have realized that Calculus is not needed by all college bound students and that Statistics might be more useful. But the reality is that there is so much more to Mathematics. It seems the Art of Problem Solving curriculum is addressing this for middle and high school students with the books on Number Theory and Probability. These would be great choices. If you have a student who finds Algebra I/II/Precalc to be drudgery, repeating the material in a College Algebra course could be frustrating. But if you feel that Math is going to be reduced to a box that is checked off (both on the high school transcript and on the college requirements list), then a dual enrollment or AP class might be the way to go. My son (who claims to be non-mathy) did AP Calculus so he could check off the box. I had ulterior motives though. He has always like physics so I felt like he might eventually want to take a physics course in college. I could at least provide a good mathematical foundation should he choose to do that. Another idea for fulfilling a math requirement is a computer programming class. Be careful here: a lot of students enroll in programming because they think they enjoy computer work. There is so much more to programming that learning to use software--which seems to be what many students expect. Note that I did not include geometry in that Rush to Calculus track. Geometry is for many students the only course in which they will see what mathematics really is. (To me, the short description of what math is all about is proving existence and uniqueness. Numbers are not part of this description!) Off for a walk. More later if needed. Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Here they take Statistics or Accounting, depending on their career plans. Or they may take a gentler version of Calc. There's also some cobbled together courses like Technical Math, which seem to be the applications of arithmetic to some of the trade fields. Computer Science in my state doesn't count as Math, even if it's Java under dual enrollment. I find it peculiar that Accounting counts as a math credit but Computer Science does not? Question: Are you listing high school graduation requirements or what New York public unis accept as "math" for applicants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A child does Alg I in 8th grade, and then figures out in high school that they don't like math and won't go into a math field. Others have already answered your question - but what struck me is the phrase you used. Honestly? At the high school level, even if the student does not like a subject, he should still be required to learn it. IMO, high school is NOT the place to specialize exclusively in the subjects one likes and is planning to make a career of. High school is a time to get a well rounded broad education in all subjects (otherwise one can not even make an educated choice about career plans.) So whether a student likes it or not, he should be required to do math, English, history, sciences, foreign languages... I actually find it a rather important life skill that students learn to work diligently even in a subject they may not like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My oldest did Alg 1 in 7th. For one of his high school years I had him to a half credit each of Consumer Math (I think we called it Business Math on his transcript) and SAT Prep. Colleges didn't blink. He still did Calc though, and he wasn't going for highly selective colleges. My middle son did Alg 1 in 7th. For his extra year he is doing Stats and will finish up with Calc next year (his senior year). He might go highly selective. He has one he's going to try. According to our guidance office stats he has a good shot at it. My youngest did Alg 1 in 8th. I seriously doubt he'll need Calc for his future, so we might go the Stats route with him when the time comes. It will depend if he's still in public school as the teacher who teaches it doesn't get good results. If we decide against it, then he'll do College Alg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Others have already answered your question - but what struck me is the phrase you used. Honestly? At the high school level, even if the student does not like a subject, he should still be required to learn it. IMO, high school is NOT the place to specialize exclusively in the subjects one likes and is planning to make a career of. High school is a time to get a well rounded broad education in all subjects (otherwise one can not even make an educated choice about career plans.) So whether a student likes it or not, he should be required to do math, English, history, sciences, foreign languages...I actually find it a rather important life skill that students learn to work diligently even in a subject they may not like. Good point. There is perhaps a cultural observation to me made here as well. Once upon a time, an educated person was a "philosopher", someone who studied ideas in both the arts and sciences. Consider Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin--we may think of the them as politicians, but Jefferson could read four languages besides English while Franklin is remembered equally for his diplomacy skills as well as his scientific observations. At some point in recent history, people seemed to accept the mistaken notion that one is either a science person or an arts person. Hence science people were supposedly excused from writing and arts people were excused from math. (The exception to this is music--both science and arts people are encouraged to participate.) I think that some students do not even try to speak a foreign language or do well in math, writing off the subject before immersing themselves in it. Does that sound harsh? Perhaps it is but I have grown weary of stinking attitudes! Edited March 17, 2011 by Jane in NC clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choirfarm Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Others have already answered your question - but what struck me is the phrase you used. Honestly? At the high school level, even if the student does not like a subject, he should still be required to learn it. IMO, high school is NOT the place to specialize exclusively in the subjects one likes and is planning to make a career of. High school is a time to get a well rounded broad education in all subjects (otherwise one can not even make an educated choice about career plans.) So whether a student likes it or not, he should be required to do math, English, history, sciences, foreign languages...I actually find it a rather important life skill that students learn to work diligently even in a subject they may not like. Well, I'm not sure I agree. I loved performing so I had show choir, drama and regular choir. I use this a ton in my real life. It was useful for me. I did not have time to take 4 years of science 4 years of math, 4 years of English, computer science ( actually that class didn't exist.. personal computers came out when I was at the end of high school) . Health, etc. Now, that said, I agree with you to a certain degree. Just because he hates math doesn't mean he doesn't have to take it, but do I think you need Calculus to be a well-educated person? No, I don't. Even though my test scores always gave me really high marks in science, I always hated it. I took the requirement when I went to school which was Biology and Chemistry. I was shocked when I scored at the top of the ACT for science which placed me out of Biology in college which was the only science I needed to have. I'll be honest, I am grateful dh is a Biology/pre-med guy because I hate science so he can communicate a love for the subject that I just don't have. Have I missed never taking physics... I don't know. Now my oldest son hates writing. Fine, he still has to do it. Middle son hates math, sorry he still has to do it. But would I enroll my oldest in a creative writing class??? NO!!! Will I enroll my middle on in Calculus.. I don't know since I can't help him with it at all and he seems to need that. I just don't know that I should force him to do that. However, music is important to me. My boys have been/are forced to take piano. They may quit when they graduate. To me it is good for their brain and math skills. I'm teaching my daughter piano for the moment. She'll start lessons next year, but she has been forced to take violin for 3 years. To me, you have to play an instrument for 4 or 5 years before you get good enough to know whether or not you enjoy it. Perhaps that is your point about math? So far, all of my children have enjoyed their instrument around that 5 year point. They may not like performing, but they enjoy playing for fun. Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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