Should I switch from LC (to maybe Henle) or Keep trying??

[Phoatogirl]

Hello,

 

We have been trying to do Latin the last couple years. I have to admit that my 7th grader doesn't study it daily for half an hour, but often just spends about 6-15 minutes almost daily.

 

He can write down the grammar forms introduced in the first book with about 95% accuracy but he failed the first test in book two (he got 60% correct, he might have gotten more if I had really prepped him on what to study).

 

My frustration with Latin Christiana is the lack of explaination in the teacher manual and the paltry opportunity for practice. I frequently consult a seperate grammar or text book to help myself understand the little that has been covered thus far.

 

I'm I just whining needlessly, or are there others of you that felt lost in this introductory course?

 

I looked at the sample for Henle I on Amazon, as well as the guide/lesson plans that Memoria Press just came out with and it seem to me that Henle would be an easier program to use for parents that don't know latin. What gives me pause is that I the highschools in my area, as well as Kolbe Academy, use Henle starting in 9th grade.

 

Should we wait on Henle and just keep going through LCII (we are on lesson 6), or might Henle be a better fit right now?

[Cleopatra]

I have had my frustrations :banghead: with LCII, and I sympathize. What I realized, as my dd moved from I to II, is that LCI is still lots of memorization but in LCII begins the application. My dd went from getting 100% every test in LCI to getting around 80% in LCII. I didn't worry about it, as I figured she'd pick it up with practice ...... only, (how right you are!) LC gives very little practice!

 

I began Henle myself a few months ago and the way it is structured is far more sensible than LCII. There are just a few vocabulary words but tons of practice and it is applied in a way that helps the student learn the skills. My plan for now is to have my dd rush through LCII to finish (she's on lesson 18) and then begin Henle. I don't know why I feel hesitant to start Henle before finishing LCII but I do. Memoria Press has study guides but I've found Mother of Divine Grace's syllabus is more helpful.

 

There are a few moms on the boards who have begun Henle with younger dc (grade 5 and 6) and I'm sure that they'll chime in. Colleen in NS and Melanie were particularly helpful and answered all my questions. Thanks again, you two! :D

[5LittleMonkeys]

I have no expertise when it comes to Latin programs but thought I'd go ahead and mention Latin Prep. We used LC the beginning of this year and it was a complete flop. My dd13 could memorize all of the flashcards but they meant nothing to her because she wasn't using them in context. The little bit of grammar that she had to learn didn't stick either because again, she wasn't using it. We switched to Latin Prep after Christmas and we love it! You start out the first chapter with translating sentences and shortly thereafter my dd was translating entire paragraphs. There are lists of vocabulary to learn but because you use the words so much in the translating you don't have to rely on rote memorization. The other part I love is the grammar. She is really becoming quite proficient already with being able to indicate the parts of speech in a Latin sentence.

 

I've not looked at Henle so couldn't say whether or not it is better than Latin Prep but I do remember reading some reviews about it and worried that dd might not be old enough for it...regardless, we are very happy with Latin Prep and plan on sticking with it for a while.

[Colleen in NS]

My frustration with Latin Christiana is the lack of explaination in the teacher manual and the paltry opportunity for practice. I frequently consult a seperate grammar or text book to help myself understand the little that has been covered thus far.

 

I'm I just whining needlessly, or are there others of you that felt lost in this introductory course?

 

I looked at the sample for Henle I on Amazon, as well as the guide/lesson plans that Memoria Press just came out with and it seem to me that Henle would be an easier program to use for parents that don't know latin. What gives me pause is that I the highschools in my area, as well as Kolbe Academy, use Henle starting in 9th grade.

 

Should we wait on Henle and just keep going through LCII (we are on lesson 6), or might Henle be a better fit right now?

 

My son did LC 1 and 2, in grades 4 and 5, and yes, I was so frustrated a lot of the time with the teacher guide and lack of clarity. There were also many mistakes in the books, and I had to slog through the forum at MP to correct them in my books.

 

Ds started Henle 1 in grade 6, and I will say that it could be because of his previous experience with LC, but I find Henle to be a lot easier to implement. I think LC is mostly about memorizing vocabulary and beginning translation, and I think one can easily do that with Henle. Esp. a 7th grader. But again, I'm looking at this through the lens of having painstakingly finishing LC 1 and 2. Still, I think it can be done.

 

I bought the MP study guides for the first few units of Henle, but I ditched them after a few months. I figured out that they were basically just a pattern of study. You can write up your own pattern of study, and follow it. New vocab? Write it out on flashcards, recite every day, record in notebook. New grammar form? Ditto. Latin to English translation? Read the Latin aloud, and translate aloud or write it out. English to Latin translation? Write it out. New derivatives? Record in notebook after discussing or consulting a dictionary. New rule? Write it on a flashcard to memorize, record in notebook. And so on. There might be one or two other things that I do in my "study pattern," but it's pretty easy to figure out as you come to new types of sections in Henle.

 

But definitely keep up the memory work each day, esp. the grammar forms and vocab. It will greatly reduce frustration in translation.

 

I have Henle 1 scheduled out for three years - grades 6-8.

 

Dyan, you're welcome. :D

[Phoatogirl]

Would Henle cover the same information as LCII? I'm thinking it would. If Henle is much better laid out than LC, and easier to understand, why would it be considered highschool instead of jh/hs level?

[Melanie]

Hello,

 

We have been trying to do Latin the last couple years. I have to admit that my 7th grader doesn't study it daily for half an hour, but often just spends about 6-15 minutes almost daily.

 

He can write down the grammar forms introduced in the first book with about 95% accuracy but he failed the first test in book two (he got 60% correct, he might have gotten more if I had really prepped him on what to study).

 

My frustration with Latin Christiana is the lack of explaination in the teacher manual and the paltry opportunity for practice. I frequently consult a seperate grammar or text book to help myself understand the little that has been covered thus far.

 

I'm I just whining needlessly, or are there others of you that felt lost in this introductory course?

 

I looked at the sample for Henle I on Amazon, as well as the guide/lesson plans that Memoria Press just came out with and it seem to me that Henle would be an easier program to use for parents that don't know latin. What gives me pause is that I the highschools in my area, as well as Kolbe Academy, use Henle starting in 9th grade.

 

Should we wait on Henle and just keep going through LCII (we are on lesson 6), or might Henle be a better fit right now?

 

You're right; the instruction in LCII is lacking and can be frustrating for the beginner. I remember being pretty ticked off about it and ended up googling a lot of things. :lol: But we all made it through, and so can you. Try for at least 30 minutes daily. Start with a recitation - I can't tell you how much daily recitations have helped us in our Latin study! If you need extra practice, there are supplemental materials for LC. We used Ludere Latine, Lingua Angelica, and the free worksheets offered on the Memoria Press website. (The worksheets aren't perfect, but they do offer additional translation practice.)

 

Of course, you don't have to work through LCII before beginning Henle. (It was helpful to know a lot of the vocabulary ahead of time, but I don't think learning it as Henle introduces it would be too difficult.) Don't worry about starting "young." My son started Henle in 7th grade and completed the entire book in two years; my daughter started in 5th grade and will probably finish it by the end of 7th grade. They're both doing very well. We use the MODG syllabi, the Seton answer keys, and the Teacher's Manual for Henle Latin Series: First and Second Years by Sister Mary Jeanne, S. N. D. (It is published by Loyola University Press.) We also use Lingua Biblica and Lingua Latina "for fun." I have no background in Latin, so we need all the help we can get! :D

 

There are a few moms on the boards who have begun Henle with younger dc (grade 5 and 6) and I'm sure that they'll chime in. Colleen in NS and Melanie were particularly helpful and answered all my questions. Thanks again, you two! :D

 

You're welcome. I'm glad I could help. :)

[Melanie]

Would Henle cover the same information as LCII? I'm thinking it would. If Henle is much better laid out than LC, and easier to understand, why would it be considered highschool instead of jh/hs level?

 

I'm beginning to think that grade levels are arbitrary; Latin grammar is Latin grammar, and it doesn't seem to matter when you learn it.

 

LCII includes many Latin sayings, songs, prayers, and bits of Roman history that aren't included in Henle, but the grammar in LCII is covered in Henle.

[wapiti]

I have no experience with LC but I'm using Henle with my dd9 (almost 10). I chose Henle rather than something like LC because I just want to be done with Latin already :D, especially the part that is the equivalent of the first year of high school Latin (which will probably take two years or more). I do want to get another couple years of Latin done following that. I don't know how many years I'm going to be hs-ing dd, so I'd like to get as far as I can. I didn't want to spend time doing a program that is followed by something like Henle *if* I can just do Henle now, albeit slowly. What I like about it: lessons that are somewhat "smaller" in scope, lots of grammar, lots of translation (both Latin to English and vice versa), and vocabulary that is not overwhelming per lesson. It is not easy by any means and does involve a certain level of commitment, but it seems to me to be both doable and efficient. I guess that's the key reason I chose Henle: I wanted our efforts with Latin to be efficient.

 

Prior to Henle, we did GSWL, which I felt was a very nice intro for dd. At her age, Henle might be quite tough to go in cold, probably biting off more than she could chew, but GSWL wasn't exactly a big time commitment and it was easy and fun. It really paved the way nicely. Now that she's learning things that were not covered in GSWL, it's getting harder, but we're going slowly. We're using the MODG syllabus. I'd say that if dd devotes a solid 45 minutes per day, we won't have problems. Sometimes I break up the lessons a little differently than the syllabus, or throw in an extra exercise - I might take a "big" lesson and break it into two, or I might take part of that big lesson and do it with an easier day that comes immediately before or after.

 

Other things we do: DD has issues with handwriting, so we often do the Latin-to-English orally, and I scribe for her while she translates the English-to-Latin, or she writes it on the white board. I have her write out a list of endings every day when we start our lesson. She does her best from memory and then looks at the chart for the rest. The translation exercises seem to play a very big role in learning endings, I suppose because they provide the context. She writes index cards for all new vocabulary words, and I have her write new grammar rules in her notebook. She's not one to memorize by rote, so these little writing activities help. The MODG syllabus includes weekly quizzes, which we do, though sometimes we're moving a little slower through the syllabus so they're not exactly weekly.

 

Note that Henle is very Catholic, in case that's an issue for you. In the translations, the Christians are always praising Christ, and the Romans are always conquering the Gauls ;).

 

Re: the MODG syllabus, I have three: "Latin I", and "Latin II", which are 32 weeks each and each cover half the book, and "Latin I & II", which does the whole book in 32 weeks. Thus far we've been doing just the essential exercises (the faster syllabus) except where I think dd needs more practice. But this week we may be switching to the slower one from here on out. I can't say that the syllabus is absolutely necessary - you could just follow along the book - though I like the quizzes and it's nice to see at least one person's view of how to break up the lessons. I'm in a bit of a pickle schedule-wise, because dd goes to a one-day-per-week school program (mostly specials, all fluff) and I already have her doing math homework that day, so we're left with only 4 days per week to do Latin. I need to figure out a way to get a bit of Latin done on that one "school" day... maybe just reviewing endings and vocab or something. I do believe that doing it every day makes a big difference in how easy or hard the next lesson is.

 

I also use the Sister Mary Jeanne teacher guide occasionally (http://www.loyolapress.com/henle-latin-series-first-and-second-years.htm) and the Seton answer key. FWIW, while I loved Latin in high school, I was not a diligent student and I'm re-learning Latin as we go along. That's my two cents on Henle - so far, so good. We're still new to hs-ing and to Henle, so we'll see. :)

[Phoatogirl]

Thanks so much for the detailed responses. I'm ready just to switch to Henle now.

 

How does the MODG syllabus compare to the Memoria Press guide?

http://www.memoriapress.com/descriptions/sample/Henleguide/HenleGuide.pdf

 

The idea of having a syllabus is very appealing to me, I just to to figure out which to buy.

 

Wendy

[Phoatogirl]

Melanie, what is the difference between the Seton answer key and the Henle answer key?

[wapiti]

I may be wrong, but I believe the MP syllabus covers Units 1 and 2, and the next MP syllabus covers Units 3-5. In contrast, the MODG syllabus for Latin 1 covers Units 1-7, and the Latin II covers Units 8-14. I didn't know about the MP syllabus before I bought the MODG one, but that pace seems too slow.

 

Fr. Henle's answer key (Loyola Press) is not complete. Besides the Seton one http://www.setonbooks.com/viewone.php?ToView=S-L1HS-12, apparently there's a key by MODG recently discussed on the high school board, though I don't that one.

[Melanie]

Melanie, what is the difference between the Seton answer key and the Henle answer key?

 

The Seton answer key is more complete. For example, First Year, Unit 6, exercise 239:

 

Henle Key: See Introduction, 3.

 

Seton Key: The following verbs are all in subjunctive mood, present tense, active voice. 1. 2nd sing. 2. 3rd pl. 3. 3rd sing., etc.

 

Unfortunately, the Seton key for Henle Second Year is not as complete. I'll probably purchase the MODG supplemental answer key shortly. :tongue_smilie:

[Phoatogirl]

Thanks! I take it you don't need the Henle key if you buy the Seton Key for the Henle. Then later, buy the MODG supplemental key for any answers that aren't found in the Seton key?

[Colleen in NS]

Would Henle cover the same information as LCII?

 

YES!! :D And less frustratingly so. I think it's considered high school level, because years ago First, Second, Third, and Fourth Year Latin were a four year high school Latin course. Students would have completed First Year Latin in one year. A younger child would have a much harder time completing it in one year. Even nowadays, I hardly read about a grade 9 or up student completing it in one year, though it is possible if the time is committed to it. In a Catholic school in the 1940s/1950s, it probably would have taken higher priority.

 

Teacher's Manual for Henle Latin Series: First and Second Years by Sister Mary Jeanne, S. N. D. (It is published by Loyola University Press.)

 

Do you know how this compares to the MODG answer book that was discussed on the high school board yesterday (I posted there, if you want to follow my posts to find it - I can't remember what the thread was called)?

[Gratia271]

Thanks! I take it you don't need the Henle key if you buy the Seton Key for the Henle. Then later, buy the MODG supplemental key for any answers that aren't found in the Seton key?

 

That is correct. You don't need both. The MODG syllabus is great also, providing quizzes, tests, and drill sheets in addition to the course of study.

[wapiti]

Do you know how this compares to the MODG answer book that was discussed on the high school board yesterday (I posted there, if you want to follow my posts to find it - I can't remember what the thread was called)?

 

I don't have the MODG answer key so I don't know what's in it, but the Sister Mary Jeanne book does not have an answer key. It's teaching tips for each lesson.

[Melanie]

That is correct. You don't need both. The MODG syllabus is great also, providing quizzes, tests, and drill sheets in addition to the course of study.

:iagree:

 

 

I don't have the MODG answer key so I don't know what's in it, but the Sister Mary Jeanne book does not have an answer key. It's teaching tips for each lesson.

:iagree:

[Colleen in NS]

Thanks, Melanie and wapiti.

[Capt_Uhura]

This may be a stupid question....but are there secular latin programs?

[Melanie]

Wheelock's is secular.

[SnMomof7]

If you visit the MP forums, a few LC II users are bailing in favor of First Form Latin and are happy with the change. That is how they are teaching it in their privates schools now: PL, LC I, First Form.

 

Another option to consider apart from Henle.

 

I don't have it yet, but am planning to self-teach from it to get a jump on DD. I like that it has more hand-holding than Henle :).

[Cleopatra]

If you visit the MP forums, a few LC II users are bailing in favor of First Form Latin and are happy with the change. That is how they are teaching it in their privates schools now: PL, LC I, First Form.

 

Another option to consider apart from Henle.

 

I don't have it yet, but am planning to self-teach from it to get a jump on DD. I like that it has more hand-holding than Henle :).

 

After searching the MP forums, I'm not convinced that First Form is the best choice. After you finish all four levels (!), they say you can begin with Henle II. They admit that FF does not have the translation practice that Henle has and they say that their programs are actually structured to teach English grammar; Latin translation is secondary. :confused:

 

IMO, you shouldn't have to go through such a process to reach Henle II unless the program you are using is rather weak. I'm sorry; perhaps MP has simply frustrated me to the point of being narrow-minded but, having used Henle, I'm convinced it will, at the very least, be a big improvement. I can see someone choosing FF over Henle in a classroom situation but I think, for homeschoolers, Henle is certainly usable and the superior program.