Colleen in NS Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Usually I can puzzle these things out on my own, but ds and I are stumped on this one! In R&S grammar book 7, lesson 77, it tells us that when more than one individual is described by two adjectives (or named by two nouns, but that's not relevant to my question), use an article for each individual. Here is the sample sentence: "The rich and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." (two kings, one rich and one powerful). Well, OK, I can see that it's two kings because of the two "the"s before "rich" and "powerful", but then why does it just say "king"? Wouldn't it be clearer to say "The rich king and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth" ?? I thought maybe it was a mistake, but then in sections C of class practice and written practice, there are more examples that have the same structure - seemingly plural because of two "the"s before adjectives, but the actual noun is singular. It's very confusing. What am I missing? It sure sounds like the second "the" shouldn't be there, if the noun is going to be singular. Or, the noun should be written after each adjective, if indeed it is two different things. Those samples just don't sound right at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm no grammar maven, but it doesn't sound right to me either. Written as "The rich and the powerful king coveted Judah's weath." sounds to me like one king who is both rich and powerful. If the additional "the" is there to show plurality, it's not doing it's job (imo). If it said, "The rich and the powerful kings....." then I would assume that the kings were both rich and powerful. I hope someone has an answer for you. And I'm moving this quote over here from the post I put on K-8 - she illustrates my confusion, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are actually saying "The rich (king) and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." The first 'king' is understood. We covered this in The Art of Styling Sentences, and I cannot think of what it is called right now, and the book is loaned out this week. :glare: You could just say "The rich king and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." and it would mean the same thing. Leaving out the first king is a more mature style concept (maybe a bit mature for 7th grade grammar, even.) It is a plural subject, though you can't tell with the past tense verb form. :001_smile: You are talking about two kings, so it is plural. if it was singular, it would say, "The rich and powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are actually saying "The rich (king) and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." The first 'king' is understood. We covered this in The Art of Styling Sentences, and I cannot think of what it is called right now, and the book is loaned out this week. :glare: You could just say "The rich king and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." and it would mean the same thing. Leaving out the first king is a more mature style concept (maybe a bit mature for 7th grade grammar, even.) It is a plural subject, though you can't tell with the past tense verb form. :001_smile: You are talking about two kings, so it is plural. if it was singular, it would say, "The rich and powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." What she said :) To teach it, I might substitute the following: Make a compound subject out of the following 2 sentences and change the verb to present tense: The rich king covets Judah's wealth. The powerful king covets Judah's wealth. The rich king and the powerful king covet Judah's wealth. --mature writers remove repeated words----- The rich and the powerful king covet Judah's wealth. ---focus that 2 articles mean 2 nouns (subjects in this instance) b/c articles are noun markers and "the" refers to one noun, or one group of nouns (the boy; the girls). ---show the same using 2 different nouns The rich man and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth. ---show how the cancellation of repeated words doesn't work there. \ It's late and I'm sleepy. I'm not even sure if I'm making sense. And I agree, that I would more likely say, The rich king and the powerful king coveted....to show the distinction; unless, of course, in context, that distinction had previously been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearnpurple Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are actually saying "The rich (king) and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." The first 'king' is understood. We covered this in The Art of Styling Sentences, and I cannot think of what it is called right now, and the book is loaned out this week. :glare: You could just say "The rich king and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." and it would mean the same thing. Leaving out the first king is a more mature style concept (maybe a bit mature for 7th grade grammar, even.) It is a plural subject, though you can't tell with the past tense verb form. :001_smile: You are talking about two kings, so it is plural. if it was singular, it would say, "The rich and powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." It does seem a bit "mature" for 7th grade.....we just went through this scenario in our house hold last week! Although, considering they "graduate" Amish/Mennonite students in 8th grade - this would be similar to 10th/11th grade.....?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think it's quite awkward! Are you sure it's talking about 2 kings? Could "the rich" mean "rich people," and not a second king? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think it's quite awkward! Are you sure it's talking about 2 kings? Could "the rich" mean "rich people," and not a second king? From context, you can tell. The lesson has many other examples that are more clear than this one, and they are all of the same format. If not for that, I would consider it vague, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are actually saying "The rich (king) and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." The first 'king' is understood. We covered this in The Art of Styling Sentences, and I cannot think of what it is called right now, and the book is loaned out this week. :glare: You could just say "The rich king and the powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." and it would mean the same thing. Leaving out the first king is a more mature style concept (maybe a bit mature for 7th grade grammar, even.) It is a plural subject, though you can't tell with the past tense verb form. :001_smile: You are talking about two kings, so it is plural. if it was singular, it would say, "The rich and powerful king coveted Judah's wealth." More questions to you on my other thread. :D --mature writers remove repeated words----- unless, of course, in context, that distinction had previously been made. This example of how to teach it is very helpful; thank you! Esp. the distinctions you made from when there are two different nouns, and how words can cancel/not cancel each other (grammar crossing into math, lol) About the quoted part - I guess I'm going to need to understand more about this "mature writer" idea. I've not encountered the "removing of repeated words" in this way before. More to think about.... It does seem a bit "mature" for 7th grade.....we just went through this scenario in our house hold last week! Although, considering they "graduate" Amish/Mennonite students in 8th grade - this would be similar to 10th/11th grade.....?!?!?! Ahhh, this would make more sense to me then! I guess this is also why some people stretch R&S grammar over later years? I'm just ignorantly plowing my way through a book a year, corresponding with my children's official grade levels...:lol: I think it's quite awkward! Are you sure it's talking about 2 kings? Could "the rich" mean "rich people," and not a second king? Yes, I'm sure. It has to do with the concept in R&S - if there is a "the" before each noun, it is two different items. I guess this is where grammar knowledge of things like this comes in handy - if the writer followed grammar rules, then you will know he/she is talking about two different things. If the writer didn't, well, you're outta luck, I guess! :lol: It's funny because *I'm* the one in my house who is bugged by this - my son is just accepting what R&S tells him and doing the exercises accordingly - he impatiently said to me the other day, "Mom, who cares why?? Let's just get this overwith!" :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Colleen, I can't take credit for mature writers not repeating words. It's a focus in Write Shop. The idea is not to justify this case alone, but also to encourage the kiddos to get out the thesaurus! This particular case is also a good time to review the questions adjectives answer. It will help to identify the noun objects and encourage more interesting choices than, "the." I'd encourage you to look for instances of this in reading now, to apply to idea in a real world example of someone else's writing. Let us know where you see it. It is a concept I'd like to point out to my kiddos, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Colleen,I can't take credit for mature writers not repeating words. It's a focus in Write Shop. The idea is not to justify this case alone, but also to encourage the kiddos to get out the thesaurus! I'm sure it's my mind/lack of experience, and not your communication, but I'm not making the mental connection here - what does the thesaurus have to do with this new-to-me concept?:blushing: This particular case is also a good time to review the questions adjectives answer. It will help to identify the noun objects and encourage more interesting choices than, "the." I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're talking about here, either.... I'd encourage you to look for instances of this in reading now, to apply to idea in a real world example of someone else's writing. Let us know where you see it. It is a concept I'd like to point out to my kiddos, too. I will be looking for this concept in reading now, too. (I am so embarrassed that I can't seem to understand what you are kindly explaining to me...I'm on yet another learning curve, and it's uncomfortable right now...thank you in advance for any patience you might have to employ with me!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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