More on Finland and education

[jld]

I don't know if this has been posted or not on an earlier thread . . . but didn't want anyone to miss out on it.

 

http://www.annenberginstitute.org/vue/summer09/Darling.php

 

I'm still trying to get together with my neighbor from Finland to talk education. I'll post on it when we finally do get together.

[Tabrett]

Since student's evaluations are not paper and pencil test and are in oral and narrative form, I wonder if they would do as bad as American dc on written tests?

 

How do you compare our student to Finland when the tests are not the same?

 

I have a feeling American dc's test scores would rise significantly if given orally. My oldest dd would do excellent with an oral test, but she is a horrible pencil-paper test taker!

[jld]

Tabrett, the Finns scored 3rd, I believe, on the recent PISA tests. Some people have wondered what the Finns are doing well, and how we could emulate them.

[jlmom]

Thanks for posting--good article. I'm curious to hear what your friend has to say about the Finnish education system. We could certainly learn a few lessons from them.

[jld]

I know. I keep looking for her, but it's Christmas break for them, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're travelling.

 

She did mention, in the few minutes we had to talk a few weeks ago, that there is just better general welfare in Finland than in America (socialism, egads!). All the kids have a good breakfast and good lunch, and have appropriate clothing for the weather. They all take breaks outside every day, regardless of the weather. There are regular recess periods throughout the day, even for teens!

 

There just seems to be more of a "we're all in this together, so let's take care of everyone" mentality there, though I will certainly ask her specifically about this.

 

In America it just seems like it's everyone for themselves, trying to gain as much money in every way as they can, and I just don't know how we can emulate Finland if these remain our values.

 

But I'll know more when I talk to her.

[Azalea]

Thank you for posting this link. One part that really caught my attention was this: "And over 50 percent of the Finnish adult population participates in adult-education programs." If you would ask your friend more information about this aspect of Finland's education system and report back to us, I would be grateful. The US's system is so broken, I'm wondering if this might be one of our answers. (If we could get adults more excited about learning history, literature, science, etc.) Specifically in regards to the Finnish system, I'm wondering a little what that 50 percent means. Here in the states lots of us attend seminars or a week long class here and there for continuing education in our field, but I wouldn't really consider that adult-education.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There was a recent study that compared the top scorers in other countires to our top scorers so that the comparison would be more valid. Again, the US did not perform so well at all:( I will have to find the link.

 

 

Here is the link:

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/12/your-child-left-behind/8310/

Edited December 27, 2010 by priscilla

[stripe]

Yes, I've also seen recent studies that it's not the case that ethnic diversity is the cause for low American test scores (i.e., the brown people are dragging "us" down).

 

I think if a country has a well educated population, it tends to be somewhat self-perpetuating. Well educated parents demanding good schools for their children; the children raised in a home with educated parents, and a culture of education.

 

I think certain subsections of the US do have a "culture of education." Asian Americans are not ethnically homogeneous (really!), nor are they religiously homogeneous. However, there is an expectation on the part of many parents within some Asian American groups that is translated into cultural support for studies that may not be present with some other groups. And Asian Americans are way overrepresented (populationwise) in colleges and in college applicants. Some other groups may not be so well educated, but they place a high value on it. Other groups don't care, or perceive it as a negative.

[Farrar]

I agree. We are a unique country and we are going to have to find unique solutions to our educational issues. We may learn interesting information from studying Finland and China and Singapore.... but we won't find an American solution to an American problem.

 

I guess I see the one thing that all these other systems have in common is that their educational systems aren't political bargaining chips and the victims of political turf wars. While the government and politicians may direct, they mostly let the experts decide instead of the politicians and they think in terms of long term gains, not short term. Unfortunately, I see all those things as our biggest challenge as a society right now in nearly every arena. We may need an American solution, but America seems to be pretty broken in the solution implementation department these days. :(

[jld]

I guess I see the one thing that all these other systems have in common is that their educational systems aren't political bargaining chips and the victims of political turf wars. While the government and politicians may direct, they mostly let the experts decide instead of the politicians and they think in terms of long term gains, not short term. Unfortunately, I see all those things as our biggest challenge as a society right now in nearly every arena. We may need an American solution, but America seems to be pretty broken in the solution implementation department these days. :(

 

I hear you.

 

I saw my neighbor the other day, but her in-laws are here, and they will be travelling on and off for the next two weeks, so the talk will probably happen sometime after that.

 

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'll be sure to ask about adult ed, too.

[stripe]

I read the article last night and I was very interested in three things:

* the fact that they've changed their educational system so much in 40 years (from a mediocre/bad system to an excellent one)

* the ways that they've changed it that have been in the opposite direction from American top-down "improvements"

* at the same time as the increasing number of immigrants from around the world, quality has only improved (it amazes me that everyone assumes immigrants are bad on the educational system, as if all immigrants are uneducated and/or criminals and/or refuse to speak any other language than one original one, when often immigrants [both educated and not] are highly motivated to immigrate in the first place BECAUSE of a desire for a good education for their kids).

 

Of course the desire to spend on education rather than, say, prisons is commendable and thoroughly sensible.

 

I also found the description of teacher education (both prior to becoming a teacher and continuing education/collaborative work in the school) to be fantastic. Thanks so much for sharing.

[FloridaLisa]

Honestly, I don't see how you could possibly compare Finland's educational system to the USA.

 

First of all, their entire population is less than 6 million. That's roughly equivalent to the population of the state of Maryland. And only about 1 million of those people are school-aged children. I live in a school district that serves nearly that many.

 

America's educational problems should be dealt with at a state and local level. Federal government reforms only add layers of bureaucracy and largess, making it more cumbersome to promote change that makes a real difference. As education becomes more centralized, it will be more and more difficult to reform the beast.

 

Lisa

 

ETA: Interestingly, no mention of behavior issues, the bane of many American classrooms. Was this ever a problem in Finland? What is available to Finish teachers to deal with discipline problems? American teachers seem to have their hands tied in this area.

Edited December 27, 2010 by FloridaLisa

[Capt_Uhura]

I think this article fits in with this discussion: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sabrina-stevens-shupe/successful-schools-treat-teachers_b_793559.html?ref=fb&src=sp

 

I think our issue is that gov't educrats are in control rather than teacher and parents. I recall talking to one of the nurses at the hospital when I had one of my babies. The powers that be had instituted all these changes but no one bothered to ask the nurses their opinion on how these changes would affect patient care. Why don't they consult the people in the trenches?

[Farrar]

America's educational problems should be dealt with at a state and local level. Federal government reforms only add layers of bureaucracy and largess, making it more cumbersome to promote change that makes a real difference. As education becomes more centralized, it will be more and more difficult to reform the beast.

 

Lisa

:iagree: So, so in agreement on this. However, I do see the other side, which is that then funding becomes so inequitable that it causes big problems.

[stripe]

:confused: Who said this?

I didn't say anyone on this thread said this. It's a common comment in dealing with heterogeneity of American society.

 

It is a fact, however, that this takes time, money, and effort... and no other country in the world has to deal with it to the degree that America does. (At least, none that I am aware of.)

In terms of % of population or sheer numbers? Canada has a higher % of immigrants in its population than the US does. There are countries, including Singapore, that are ethnically diverse yet perform well academically. Here is a wikipedia chart on the subject that is sort of interesting.

 

It's worth remembering that not all of these immigrants are children! Therefore if an 80 year old grandpa immigrates, it has zero effect on the public school system. This is why the huge numbers of immigrant workers in many Arab Gulf states may or may not be relevant to discussions about public school diversity, because only some of them bring their kids, and few of these may attend public schools.

 

Finland and many Scandinavian countries also have financial homogeneity by design, not by accident.

 

I also am not sure where all this money is being spent to teach immigrants English (especially as many of them already speak it!), programs to "assimilate them" into American society, or anything of the sort. There are not that many ways to enter the US legally as a permanent resident: through family sponsorship, employer sponsorship, through the lottery, and as a refugee. So many of them are connected to an institution/community/family already, rather than being on their own. The only immigrants I am aware of who obtain special help from the government are refugees. In 2009, according to the DHS, less than 75,000 refugees were admitted to the US. Less than 25,000 were granted asylum in 2009. Those who come through other means are basically on their own.

 

I am further not certain that there is any evidence that those who tend to score the worst on standardized tests are immigrants at all. In fact, the lowest scoring groups tend to be American born, particularly African Americans.

[jld]

I think this article fits in with this discussion: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sabrina-stevens-shupe/successful-schools-treat-teachers_b_793559.html?ref=fb&src=sp

 

I think our issue is that gov't educrats are in control rather than teacher and parents. I recall talking to one of the nurses at the hospital when I had one of my babies. The powers that be had instituted all these changes but no one bothered to ask the nurses their opinion on how these changes would affect patient care. Why don't they consult the people in the trenches?

 

Thanks for linking that article.

 

You know, I think this happens a lot in America. It seems like people don't want to really look into things and fix them; they just want to grab power and slap on a solution that looks good to them, regardless of what the people affected think.

[Negin]

This topic fascinates me. I think Finland's social services and education is superb. The weather's a bit too cold for my liking, however :lol:. But that's probably the only country where I might consider not homeschooling ;). Just maybe.

 

Also, Finland's population is HIGHLY homogenous. I'm sure they don't deal with issues of immigant education, poverty issues, religious differences, etc. Here in the USA, education (as the state defines it) tackles much more than the three R's due to the nature of the diverse population.

This fabulous interview addresses this and many other questions. Here's an excerpt:

"In some schools, in the areas around Helsinki, more than 30 percent of the pupils are immigrants. It seems that we have been doing good work, also with the immigrants, if we look at PISA results. Normally, if children come from a very different schooling system or society, they have one year in a smaller setting where they study Finnish and maybe some other subjects. We try to raise their level before they come to regular classrooms. We think also that learning one's mother tongue is very important, and that's why we try to teach the mother tongue for all immigrants as well. It's very challenging. I think in Helsinki, they are teaching 44 different mother tongues. The government pays for two-hour lessons each week for these pupils. We think it is very important to know your own tongue -- that you can write and read and think in it. Then it's easier also to learn other languages like Finnish or English, or other subjects."