Oral exams - how to do them eg for Calculus?

[Joan in GE]

I found a Calculus syllabus on the web (in the US), and on it, the teacher has a slot for "oral exams" at least once in the year.

 

For my ds2 who did Swiss high school, they always had written and oral exams for math.

 

(This reminds me of Jane in NC's thread about talking about math).

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if any of you have done this?

 

If so, do you have a format to suggest?

 

Or any other suggestions about how to do it?

 

My ds2 is not much help about this type of thing - as he likes to speak with as few words as possible usually.

 

Thanks!

Joan

[regentrude]

When I was in college, all our math exams were oral.

The professor would ask about definitions and theorems and also give problems I had to work out in front of him, explain the procedure and answer his questions about steps I did. We did have a piece of paper and a pencil - so it was technically not completely oral/mental math - that would not be appropriate for a calculus exam.

IMO, oral exams are a much better tool to judge a student's mastery than written ones. The instructor can go deeper with the questioning and find out who really has an exceptional understanding - and the instructor can also realize that he has hit on an area the student knows nothing about and can switch to a different topic in order to find out if the student knows anything else. (It is just extremely time consuming)

Of course, oral exams are less transparent and more prone to bias - that's why the requirement was that a second instructor had to be present in the examination.

 

Are you asking about giving YOUR student an oral examination?

I would start by asking about things the students should have memorized (definitions, important theorems), and then give my student a problem to work. I would have the student narrate his steps and ask questions about his reasons for doing certain procedures. I would then increase the difficulty of successive questions to get a good picture of just how far his knowledge extends.

 

(btw, we always had our exams in pairs. For my cumulative math final of 5 semesters, I was paired with a student who was struggling to pass - and I was fighting to get an A. He got all the easy questions, it was very frustrating to see that he knew absolutely nothing... the examiners were desperately trying to find SOMEthing he knew about. I felt as if they could not possibly have any questions for me that I would be able to answer since he got all the easy stuff... but they did, and I made it.)

[Joan in GE]

regentrude - that is very helpful. You are much more verbal than my son! (I sometimes wonder how he passed his oral exams in languages).

 

Yes, I want to set up oral exams, several over the semester, that my ds2 would give to ds3. But I want to have some practice ones that I would do with ds3, to help him get used to them. And I also want to be able to give some guidance to ds2 about what I am expecting (in case there is something to add)

 

 

(I should have started this years ago. Somehow seeing it in an American syllabus made it mandatory - I think it was avoidance due to inexperience before).

 

Do you think your professors knew that you knew everything that the weaker student did? (I don't know how many students were in a class and if they knew your previous scores.) Interesting that you got no written exams.

 

Thank you!

Joan

[regentrude]

Yes, I want to set up oral exams, several over the semester, that my ds2 would give to ds3. But I want to have some practice ones that I would do with ds3, to help him get used to them. And I also want to be able to give some guidance to ds2 about what I am expecting (in case there is something to add)

 

 

You don't need specific practice exams - you could just get ds3 in the habit of talking to you about math. I have a very good understanding of my kids' math abilities, because we TALK about problems they work on. I ask them questions, and even when they get stuck and I need to guide them, the kinds of Socratic questions I need to ask in order for them to figure out what they need to do tells me a lot about their level of understanding.

 

I think the largest value of oral exams is in problem solving and looking at thinking processes. Asking for definitions etc might as well done in a written form - but hearing a student talk through a multi-step problem reveals a lot more than just seeing a correct answer on a paper.

 

Do you think your professors knew that you knew everything that the weaker student did? (I don't know how many students were in a class and if they knew your previous scores.) Interesting that you got no written exams.

 

We did have one written test in the semester, or maybe two. No grades for homework, no pop quizzes, etc. The professors had a good idea about student performance - from the rare tests, from the oral exams after 2 and 4 semesters, and from class participation.

I guess they knew I would have known those answers - but answering the easy questions would not have earned me an A - answering the hard questions did.

[Joan in GE]

You don't need specific practice exams - you could just get ds3 in the habit of talking to you about math. I have a very good understanding of my kids' math abilities, because we TALK about problems they work on. I ask them questions, and even when they get stuck and I need to guide them, the kinds of Socratic questions I need to ask in order for them to figure out what they need to do tells me a lot about their level of understanding.

 

This is what I'm able to do with my 12 yo (now that we're using a book that requires more parental interaction) and I've been using the Socratic method a lot. I'm determined that she won't clam up like I do under pressure.

 

But it is not that easy for Calculus, regentrude, because I hardly remember any of it. You're probably wondering what on earth I'm doing then having him do it at home. I wouldn't if I had any other choice. Since we're stuck, I'm relying on good books, DVD's, and my ds2 when ds3 is lost. (But ds2 has got more than full-time school, so can't rely on him every day).

 

So I was thinking that I could ask ds3 questions from the book as practice, with him standing at a white board, because making it more formal makes it a bit harder, I think, and might prepare him better to be in front of his brother.

 

Oh yes, he may have to do oral math exams in French next year (in Calc etc), and that might be really hard since he pretty much thinks in English for math. So I hoping to squeeze in some easier oral exam work at first in French.

 

I think the largest value of oral exams is in problem solving and looking at thinking processes. Asking for definitions etc might as well done in a written form - but hearing a student talk through a multi-step problem reveals a lot more than just seeing a correct answer on a paper.

 

To me (theoretically since I've never done it for higher math) it is having to do it in front of someone who is waiting for your answer that is harder. Somehow I think I would have had to study harder.

 

I think in the Calc AP exam, about half is Free Response, where you have to show your steps (and don't get credit for your answer if you don't) - so wouldn't that show the thinking process?

 

We did have one written test in the semester, or maybe two. No grades for homework, no pop quizzes, etc. The professors had a good idea about student performance - from the rare tests, from the oral exams after 2 and 4 semesters, and from class participation.

I guess they knew I would have known those answers - but answering the easy questions would not have earned me an A - answering the hard questions did.

 

It does sound like they were really testing what you knew. I was wondering about class sizes for that kind of thing - as it can take a lot of time to do orals and to know you that well.

 

Joan

[regentrude]

I think in the Calc AP exam, about half is Free Response, where you have to show your steps (and don't get credit for your answer if you don't) - so wouldn't that show the thinking process?

 

Not necessarily. Just to give an example:

Many of my students can perform a calculation in a physics problem and even produce the right answer. If I ask them, however: what is the underlying physical principle you used? WHY were you allowed to use conservation of energy? What does it mean that this force is doing negative work? they are unable to answer. They can work out the problem because they have drilled the procedure - but they do not know what they are doing and why.

It is actually one of my biggest frustrations and a constant battle to get them to THINK. they prefer to plug and chug.

 

I was wondering about class sizes for that kind of thing - as it can take a lot of time to do orals and to know you that well.

 

Our class was only 53, but my BIL who is teaching physics at a German university had classes of 300+ students and had to give them oral exams. Takes a huge amount of time.

[Joan in GE]

They can work out the problem because they have drilled the procedure - but they do not know what they are doing and why.

It is actually one of my biggest frustrations and a constant battle to get them to THINK. they prefer to plug and chug.

 

Too bad you can't give some oral physics exams to my son.:001_smile: He just told me he hates "plug and chug".

 

I'll have to get ds2 to read your post to see what he can come up with....

 

Do any American universities still do orals?

 

Joan

[Gwen in VA]

I've never heard of oral exams in the U.S. except at the doctoral level.

 

Tutorials (my older son is at Oxford this year) do come close though -- the student has to defend his position he took in his paper, and the tutor asks questions. But that is in England.....

[Tullia]

My son's calculus instructor assigns oral presentations which are scattered throughout the semester. The combined scores for a semester's presentations carry the same weight as one written exam. Students choose problems from a list and are graded on how well they craft and explain one or more strategies for solving the general type of problem as well as how well they lead the class through solving a particular example. Students are also expected to field questions from their peers and sometimes the instructor. My son prefers presentations to "plug and chug" written exams because he works slowly and usually plugs away to the bitter end of the time alotted. He seems to do well with oral presentations, and always signs up to do the maximum number allowed. There's also a minimum requirement. I don't know how this might translate into a hs environment; it might work best in a co-op or even without other students so long as the teacher understands the math well enough to ask good questions. I could have adapted the technique for algebra, geometry and statistics...but calculus...no way.

[Joan in GE]

Martha - that is interesting about your son's oral presentations. It seems like a good way of getting students talking about calculus under a little pressure.

 

Thanks Gwen.

 

I've contacted the teacher who wrote the syllabus I mentioned....The oral exams are with her in her office and she has them do 2-3 problems at the board, explaining their thinking aloud so that she can understand what they are understanding or not. It is a small part of their grade.

 

They do some other oral presentations in class.

 

Joan