Learn to Sing?

[Heather in WI]

My boys would really like to learn how to sing. They have taken piano for years and can read music, but I have no idea where to begin with this! I learned through a combination of school and our church choir and my poor boys don't have either. {grin}

 

Could anyone recommend a curricula or DVD set or anything that we can use so that they can learn how to sing?

[FO4UR]

The most common sense way to start is to have them sing as they play. Teach them the solfegge patterns for some simple melodies (numbers related to the scale are good to sing too). Play and sing. Make sure the melody is in their range. Kids generally have trouble matching pitch an octave above or below.

 

Most of learning to sing, for children, is learning to listen. The rest is generally finding their head voice and gaining comfort singing there. Kids sing most accurately in a light natural head voice; too low and you have shouting, too high and they will drone flat or pretend they are in an opera:tongue_smilie:. It's important to establish that comfy head voice range and gain a keen ear there before growing a child's range (a process taking years imho).

 

It's a lot simpler than it sounds. Just play and sing.:D

[Jeanne in MN]

Don't know off hand of videos, but there may be local musicians in your area that could help you. There's always a person or two in a community that works with community plays, church music, teaches piano, etc. that might be able to help you. Some that may even give voice lessons. We live in a community of 4500 and my hometown of 2600 both have people around like this. Good luck!

 

Jeanne

[Kirch]

Most of learning to sing, for children, is learning to listen. The rest is generally finding their head voice and gaining comfort singing there. Kids sing most accurately in a light natural head voice; too low and you have shouting, too high and they will drone flat or pretend they are in an opera:tongue_smilie:. It's important to establish that comfy head voice range and gain a keen ear there before growing a child's range (a process taking years imho).

 

It's a lot simpler than it sounds. Just play and sing.:D

 

:iagree: It will also be easier for them to match pitch if they can find their head voices.

[CLHCO]

:iagree: It will also be easier for them to match pitch if they can find their head voices.

 

Can they already match pitch? I agree 100% with the idea of finding their "singing voice", and that too can be found through just play. I am rather suspicious of formal "voice lessons" for most children. Inappropriate advice can do long term damage to young voices. My youngest two sing with our band, and though I am qualified to teach voice lessons, having experience myself and college courses on vocal technique, I do not teach them other than simply helping them find their comfortable and natural singing voice. I let them simply enjoy and find their own style until the teen years.

 

If they cannot match pitch, here is a video I made with some suggestions that can be altered for older children, again, using a natural play and exploration of the voice as a guide.

It's amateurish, but video production is not one of my talents. :tongue_smilie:

[Heather in WI]

Thank you all for the ideas and especially the video, Cheryl. Now I at least have somewhere to start!

[myfunnybunch]

Is there a community children's choir in your area? That might be a great way to get them started. :)

 

Cat

[Kirch]

Can they already match pitch? I agree 100% with the idea of finding their "singing voice", and that too can be found through just play. I am rather suspicious of formal "voice lessons" for most children. Inappropriate advice can do long term damage to young voices. My youngest two sing with our band, and though I am qualified to teach voice lessons, having experience myself and college courses on vocal technique, I do not teach them other than simply helping them find their comfortable and natural singing voice. I let them simply enjoy and find their own style until the teen years.

 

If they cannot match pitch, here is a video I made with some suggestions that can be altered for older children, again, using a natural play and exploration of the voice as a guide.

It's amateurish, but video production is not one of my talents. :tongue_smilie:

 

:iagree: I teach voice lessons. I've only got two students at the moment, and both are teens, but I have had younger students. With the younger ones, I focused on helping them find their head voices, learning to match pitch, beginning music reading skills, posture/relaxation techniques, performance etiquette, and learning songs they enjoy. It's definitely not the same kind of voice lessons you'd do with older students!

[CLHCO]

:iagree: I teach voice lessons. I've only got two students at the moment, and both are teens, but I have had younger students. With the younger ones, I focused on helping them find their head voices, learning to match pitch, beginning music reading skills, posture/relaxation techniques, performance etiquette, and learning songs they enjoy. It's definitely not the same kind of voice lessons you'd do with older students!

 

Forgive a dramatic thread hijack, please.

 

Ok, so... given we agree here, I would like to get your opinion on something that I have been asked before, but I wasn't sure if there was any real backing behind my answer, besides just my anecdotal experience. My usual way of handling children that love to sing and excel at their normal great talent of noise-making, is to just let them. I ask because some kids do sing A LOT, and some shout, some try to sing out of their range, etc. I've been asked if it will damage their voice because I know others realize the fragility of children's voices too and worry about their child. I normally suggest a child will not over-push their voice to the point of discomfort, even if they get a little experimental and loud at times, unlike an over-zealous music director may.

 

I have, however, seen first hand damaged voices from pushing adult-appropriate lessons and over-extended use from musical theater and production, but personal play is different. Would you agree?

[FO4UR]

Jumping on that hijack: I think kids can listen to pop music, try to imitate that, and in the process produce problematic habits...that can certainly lead to permanent vocal damage. I would never let my dc get voice lessons before puberty (except by their overprotective Mommy:001_smile:).

 

I'm picky about protecting their ears. Ear plugs are a must if there is going to be loud music or machinery. It doesn't matter how sweet you croon, if you can't hear you can't really sing.

 

I'm picky about protecting them from forming bad vocal habits. I don't like them listening to really bad singing in a recording or live b/c kids imitate whatever they hear. My 7yo is a raw instrument, but has a kickin' head voice & range b/c he has listened to me (classically trained soprano) his whole life and imitates what he hears and he's reaching an age where boys make excellent sopranos. Still, I never push it...if I want to teach him a song, I sing it. I've been singing Christmas Carols around the house while I make dinner and do dishes b/c I want them to sing them beautifully. However, even though I work on it at home, when they go to church and other places they imitate their teachers...often that means its way too low for their range and they resort to shouting like all the other kids in the class.:glare:

 

To the OP: I'm working in the opposite direction...singing 1st and then teaching piano b/c that is natural to me (My 5yo has been singing Twinkle in solfegge forever, and is now able to match the solfegge patterns to piano fingerings, for ex.). Your boys already play so tack the singing on there, focusing on intonation and accuracy and matching what they read to what they hear and thus sing. It's interconnected. tbh, my 1st response when parents ask about voice lessons for children is to tell them PIANO PIANO PIANO. :D Yep, if your child is serious about singing, PIANO! Hard core theory and ear training in the format of PIANO! Stick to the Piano...and listen to high quality recordings.

[CLHCO]

Jumping on that hijack: I think kids can listen to pop music, try to imitate that, and in the process produce problematic habits...that can certainly lead to permanent vocal damage. I would never let my dc get voice lessons before puberty (except by their overprotective Mommy:001_smile:).

 

Ok, I hadn't considered the pop music aspect. I suppose I was thinking kids singing kid games and having fun. Imitating someone with very poor vocal habits would be a problem.

 

I'm picky about protecting them from forming bad vocal habits. I don't like them listening to really bad singing in a recording or live b/c kids imitate whatever they hear.

 

Yes, but my kids will just as readily try to sing to good vocal habits out of their range, and I've especially seen this tendency in the boys I used to teach, particularly around 4-6 or so when they get, *snicker*, little boy macho and they want to sing like a dude not like a mom. I've seen a lot of them try that, even more so from boys whose parents do not work on vocal habits, so it must not kill voices or we'd have a bunch of damaged male voices around.

 

The real problems occur when they are asked to sing constantly on the extremes of their range, beyond what is simple fun or beyond what is comfortable. It's not easy or comfortable, so it's my experience, or perhaps my theory, that most kids won't do it to the point of damage if not encouraged inappropriately by and adult. I cannot think of even reading a case that was otherwise, so I suppose I'm wondering if anyone has any specific experience of damage from play - even to pop music, alone.

 

I guess that is what I am getting at. Most parents do not stop this, yet the kids live on to sing fine later, and the ones I've seen receive long term damage - one particularly sad case, was encouraged with lots of practice for various musical theater on things not in a comfortable range. Heavy performance practices create an atmosphere where the natural tendency to quit when the voice is weary or it's not comfortable, is shut off in order to participate and do your part. Yelling during team sports does something similar. You get a "crowd" mentality there, and continue beyond what is healthy.

 

However, even though I work on it at home, when they go to church and other places they imitate their teachers...often that means its way too low for their range and they resort to shouting like all the other kids in the class.:glare:

 

Major pet peeve. :glare: Yes, my kids do that too, yet they have no trouble singing on pitch, harmonies, and one even has absolute pitch. He doesn't sing out of tune or shout, however, he just rolls his eyes and complains how awful everyone sounds. (He's been in trouble for that before and has learned to keep his mouth shut.)

 

My 7yo is a raw instrument, but has a kickin' head voice & range b/c he has listened to me (classically trained soprano) his whole life and imitates what he hears and he's reaching an age where boys make excellent sopranos.

 

LOL! I remember my twins when they were little trying to sing all the runs in Handel's "Rejoice" because they kept hearing me do them. They were about three and it was quite entertaining.

Edited December 7, 2010 by CLHCO
Wow. I'm having a bunch of clarity and grammatical mistakes. Ouch.

[Starr]

Is there a community children's choir in your area? That might be a great way to get them started. :)

 

Cat

 

My children sing in a Children's Choir at the University School of Music. I highly recommend this if there is something in your area.

[Kirch]

Forgive a dramatic thread hijack, please.

 

Ok, so... given we agree here, I would like to get your opinion on something that I have been asked before, but I wasn't sure if there was any real backing behind my answer, besides just my anecdotal experience. My usual way of handling children that love to sing and excel at their normal great talent of noise-making, is to just let them. I ask because some kids do sing A LOT, and some shout, some try to sing out of their range, etc. I've been asked if it will damage their voice because I know others realize the fragility of children's voices too and worry about their child. I normally suggest a child will not over-push their voice to the point of discomfort, even if they get a little experimental and loud at times, unlike an over-zealous music director may.

 

I have, however, seen first hand damaged voices from pushing adult-appropriate lessons and over-extended use from musical theater and production, but personal play is different. Would you agree?

 

I would agree for the most part, esp. about the age-inappropriate lessons and possible dangers of musical theater. If it's really just play and experimenting with sounds on their own, I think most kids will be fine. If they're singing *a lot* in inappropriate ways, it might cause problems. Still, the most common issue I've seen is singing out of their range (usually too low), and the biggest danger that I've seen as a result is a difficulty finding/using the head voice.

 

ITA with the pp, though, on the dangers of imitating pop singers. Those dangers are both physical/technique oriented and mental. Some kids really do at the very least strain their voices trying to sing (read, "belt") like and along with so-and-so. And it's often really tough to teach them to sing correctly because that idea of what a good sound is ends up being so entrenched and singing that way has become a habit.

[Kirch]

The real problems occur when they are asked to sing constantly on the extremes of their range, beyond what is simple fun or beyond what is comfortable. It's not easy or comfortable, so it's my experience, or perhaps my theory, that most kids won't do it to the point of damage if not encouraged inappropriately by and adult. I cannot think of even reading a case that was otherwise, so I suppose I'm wondering if anyone has any specific experience of damage from play - even to pop music, alone.

 

I guess that is what I am getting at. Most parents do not stop this, yet the kids live on to sing fine later, and the ones I've seen receive long term damage - one particularly sad case, was encouraged with lots of practice for various musical theater on things not in a comfortable range. Heavy performance practices create an atmosphere where the natural tendency to quit when the voice is weary or it's not comfortable, is shut off in order to participate and do your part. Yelling during team sports does something similar. You get a "crowd" mentality there, and continue beyond what is healthy.

 

 

I think that's the key--as long as they're not being pushed to do it (by parents/teachers/directors *or* by their own desire to sing like their pop star hero), they'll be fine. I don't think loud, raucous "singing" of "Ring Around the Rosy" is going to do any damage. Like you said, they'll quit when they get tired of it or it doesn't feel good!

[CLHCO]

I think that's the key--as long as they're not being pushed to do it (by parents/teachers/directors *or* by their own desire to sing like their pop star hero), they'll be fine. I don't think loud, raucous "singing" of "Ring Around the Rosy" is going to do any damage. Like you said, they'll quit when they get tired of it or it doesn't feel good!

 

Ok, cool. :thumbup: That's what my experience has shown, but I've just never seen anything formally written about this subject, only cautions on teaching children voice.

 

ITA with the pp, though, on the dangers of imitating pop singers. Those dangers are both physical/technique oriented and mental. Some kids really do at the very least strain their voices trying to sing (read, "belt") like and along with so-and-so. And it's often really tough to teach them to sing correctly because that idea of what a good sound is ends up being so entrenched and singing that way has become a habit.

 

Yep. I think it's due to the idolization of the singer, literally gaining their identity as a singer by how close to that pop star they are, very much like youth want a certain look (and body type) to go with their idols. Anything less means they are inferior. However, I imagine that is more dangerous in the preteen years, when such celebrity idolizing really kicks in.

 

Now, I have to contrast the flip side of the coin, which is the number of voice teachers who consider the only singing youth should do must be in the style of the "24 Italian Songs & Arias Of The 17th & 18th Centuries". We sing bluegrass now and you must feel free to let that twang shine through, yet to your average voice teacher, I'm ruinin' my kids for not Ooooopening the Voooowels. :lol:

 

Sorry, Heather, for the dramatic hijack!

[Kirch]

Ok, cool. :thumbup: That's what my experience has shown, but I've just never seen anything formally written about this subject, only cautions on teaching children voice.

 

 

 

Yep. I think it's due to the idolization of the singer, literally gaining their identity as a singer by how close to that pop star they are, very much like youth want a certain look (and body type) to go with their idols. Anything less means they are inferior. However, I imagine that is more dangerous in the preteen years, when such celebrity idolizing really kicks in.

 

Now, I have to contrast the flip side of the coin, which is the number of voice teachers who consider the only singing youth should do must be in the style of the "24 Italian Songs & Arias Of The 17th & 18th Centuries". We sing bluegrass now and you must feel free to let that twang shine through, yet to your average voice teacher, I'm ruinin' my kids for not Ooooopening the Voooowels. :lol:

 

Sorry, Heather, for the dramatic hijack!

 

Pshhhhh. As long as they can do it (or can learn it) if/when they need too. Bluegrass is music too (although some of those teachers might debate that with you! :tongue_smilie:)

[myfunnybunch]

My children sing in a Children's Choir at the University School of Music. I highly recommend this if there is something in your area.

 

:) Mine sing in a children's choir too. It has been an amazing experience. My boys just performed in a community holiday performance this evening, as a matter of fact. They've developed some amazing friendships along the way too.

 

The benefit is that you get a choral director experienced working with children and children's voices. Every year I am AMAZED at what our wonderful elementary boys' choir director can do with the children. By spring the kids (2nd-5th grade, with a few first graders) are singing beautiful 2- and 3-part songs. Another benefit to a children's choir is that the directors typically choose child-appropriate music. Not too formal, uplifting to the character and spirit, and usually progressing to more challenging pieces as the year progresses.

 

The downside is that it can get expensive. Tuition is less expensive than weekly voice lessons, but it costs more than trying to learn at home. That said, many organizations offer financial waivers to parent volunteers and/or financial assistance to families who need it.

 

Interesting discussion! I've enjoyed reading this thread.

 

Cat

[Heather in WI]

Is there a community children's choir in your area? That might be a great way to get them started. :)

Cat

 

That's what started this whole thing! My oldest found a flyer for the local children's choir. It's $500, 90 minutes a week, and 32 weeks long. Right now that's too much $$ and too much of a time commitment.

 

 

I don't mind the hijack. I thought it was very interesting! :-)

 

I'm confused about solfegge patterns. I googled this, but didn't come up with a concrete explanation. Can someone explain this?

 

Yesterday, I told oldest ds that he should try to sing on the treble cleff for his songs; that trying to sing too low or too high might damage his voice. He was very excited that other moms were giving advice. :) So, basically, we played through the top line of a hymn (soprano part) and tried to match it and then the alto part and tried to match it. Is this the basic gist of what to do?

[CLHCO]

That's what started this whole thing! My oldest found a flyer for the local children's choir. It's $500, 90 minutes a week, and 32 weeks long. Right now that's too much $$ and too much of a time commitment.

 

 

I don't mind the hijack. I thought it was very interesting! :-)

 

I'm confused about solfegge patterns. I googled this, but didn't come up with a concrete explanation. Can someone explain this?

 

Yesterday, I told oldest ds that he should try to sing on the treble cleff for his songs; that trying to sing too low or too high might damage his voice. He was very excited that other moms were giving advice. :) So, basically, we played through the top line of a hymn (soprano part) and tried to match it and then the alto part and tried to match it. Is this the basic gist of what to do?

 

Hey, I just though of something. Hymns for a Kid's Heart is a great one for children's voices. They did a good job making sure the key was appropriate as well as the model singers on the accompanying CD. Additionally, I believe there is a web site where you can download the MP3 of the accompaniment music without voices, sort of like hymn karaoke. ;) I love it.

 

It sounds like you play piano? Or they do? Best range is from C to C - middle C to the C on the 3rd space. That doesn't mean it'll hurt them to sing higher (in a head tone), or a touch lower at times, just don't have the bulk of the singing out of the idea range, but as we discussed above, it's stress of doing a lot of singing with poor vocal habits and on the extremes of their range that will do the damage, not likely just singing in the living room some pretty hymns.

 

BTW, most children's choirs, even small church ones, are pretty good about using music good for children's ranges, and pacing practices so no one gets too vocal weary. You could look for a little church choir. It's musical theater directors who at times get over-zealous in practice and wanting the right soloist sound. :glare: