X-Post: How deep do you go into grammar?

[Hunter's Moon]

This is something I've been struggling with for a bit as I've been having trouble with my grammar book.

 

I'm using Harvey's Revised Grammar and while there is an answer book, they don't always explain. The book doesn't clearly list out the rules for each noun case (nominative, objective, possessive, absolute). I know all the cases, but don't understand the rules part. For example, nominative has 3 rules, objective has 4, so on. But, they don't clearly list the rules in order in their book and sometimes don't list them at all. It is as if they expect me to know what they are.

 

Anyways, I've been wondering if knowing the general cases of the parts of speech is enough, or if diving deeper and figuring out the rules is important. I know *why* a noun is a certain case, and I believe that was the point of the rules, so do you think knowing why a noun is a certain case is good enough?

 

How deep do you go into grammar with your children?

[jld]

Not very, although it would be fun to do more. There's only so much time, and I want to have time for the really important things, like reading and science and math. I guess we all make choices.

 

But if we had more time, it really would be fun to go deeper into grammar, and study things I never learned, like absolutes (I've only heard of these, and don't really know what they are).

[Kates]

I answered on your other post as well, but thought about it a little more deeply. Honestly, the fact that you're taking Italian III will give you plenty of grammar - Italian is heavily based on Latin, as is English. The structure is different, but the grammar is remarkably similar.

 

No, I don't think it's necessary for you to know the case rules in English. Those rules, in English, are really sort of more...well, blurred, I guess, than they are in Romance languages.

 

You'll actually get MORE grammar with Italian than you will with English, as it's a Romance language - and the closest one to Latin, to boot. Since you're a junior, I would focus more on grammar for usage than grammar for grammar's sake - maybe more of a) a comparative study of Italian vs. English grammar (you'll be surprised how much you've already likely learned) and b) grammar for actual usage in your writing. A good way to do this may be to break down the mechanics of various authors (maybe one every two-three weeks) and assign yourself writing assignments in the same style. When you break them down, go ahead and label & analyze (or diagram, if you prefer) the sentences, so you have something to go off of. (Similar to studying art masters - finding out how they use color, form, perspective, line, etc. before imitating their works.)

 

The book you're using will probably be a lot more helpful to you if you use it to help you compare English & Italian - its parsing and grammatical rules are really more relevant to ancient and Romance languages than they are to English. (Technically, English grammar is based on Latin, but many of the rules have faded into almost non-existence over the years.)

 

Hope that helps!

[Hunter's Moon]

I answered on your other post as well, but thought about it a little more deeply. Honestly, the fact that you're taking Italian III will give you plenty of grammar - Italian is heavily based on Latin, as is English. The structure is different, but the grammar is remarkably similar.

 

No, I don't think it's necessary for you to know the case rules in English. Those rules, in English, are really sort of more...well, blurred, I guess, than they are in Romance languages.

 

You'll actually get MORE grammar with Italian than you will with English, as it's a Romance language - and the closest one to Latin, to boot. Since you're a junior, I would focus more on grammar for usage than grammar for grammar's sake - maybe more of a) a comparative study of Italian vs. English grammar (you'll be surprised how much you've already likely learned) and b) grammar for actual usage in your writing. A good way to do this may be to break down the mechanics of various authors (maybe one every two-three weeks) and assign yourself writing assignments in the same style. When you break them down, go ahead and label & analyze (or diagram, if you prefer) the sentences, so you have something to go off of. (Similar to studying art masters - finding out how they use color, form, perspective, line, etc. before imitating their works.)

 

The book you're using will probably be a lot more helpful to you if you use it to help you compare English & Italian - its parsing and grammatical rules are really more relevant to ancient and Romance languages than they are to English. (Technically, English grammar is based on Latin, but many of the rules have faded into almost non-existence over the years.)

 

Hope that helps!

 

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense.

[Moira in MA]

I'd suggest that you pick up this book:

 

English Grammar for Students of Italian

 

I find it much easier to understand English grammar in the context of another one being learned.

 

caveat: I haven't used this particular book, we've used the Latin version for years though.

 

HTH

~Moira

[FloridaLisa]

Anyways, I've been wondering if knowing the general cases of the parts of speech is enough, or if diving deeper and figuring out the rules is important. I know *why* a noun is a certain case, and I believe that was the point of the rules, so do you think knowing why a noun is a certain case is good enough?

 

At the outset, it might be Harveys that is tripping you up. I haven't used it, but from what I've read, it is a tough grammar course, especially if you're working through it on your own. Maybe other Harveys users can chime in here and offer some resources for extra help.

 

I wish I had done more grammar with my oldest. Having exhausted Shurley English, we cast about for a good option in high school. By 10th grade, academics became heavy and, with the added requirements of volunteer work and a sports team, there was no time to add in grammar. I've changed that for my other children. I think that while you can become a proficient writer without deep grammar study, a solid knowledge of grammar can help most folks write more effectively and -- importantly -- correctly.

 

Have you looked at Rod and Staff or Analytical Grammar? Rod and Staff, while thorough and rigorous, lends itself well to self-teaching.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[mhippler]

As a writer and someone who has taught college level writing (currently teaching homeschoolers both writing and grammar) I would say that unless your child wants to go on and study the English language at the college level, you don't really need to go that deep. I'm not altogether sure you need to go that deep to help you study a foreign language. The study of grammar is generally meant to help students become better writers. Granted, the fruits of this labor won't be fully realized until they are writing at a higher level, but the early grammar lessons are meant to be building blocks that lead up to sophisticated language use.

 

The problem that I see with most grammar curriculum (and I'm teaching my dd grammar for the first time at a 7th grade level) is that most completely seperate the rules and the exercises from any real writing. The book I'm using (which we got from K12) will give a list of practice sentences and ask for a list of sentences from the student, but this sort of practice doesn't always translate when she gets to writing her own essays. And it needs to. The exercises tend to give the same kinds of sentences over and over again, but when faced with a sophisticated sentence written by an author and found in the middle of a paragraph, my dd struggles to make the connection to the rules or concepts just learned. Taking the time to find sentences in the real world and having the student identify whatever part of speech or clause or pronoun case or whatever would probably be a better use of the student's time than figuring out why the rule is important.

[Kareni]

The book I'm using (which we got from K12) will give a list of practice sentences and ask for a list of sentences from the student, but this sort of practice doesn't always translate when she gets to writing her own essays.

 

I would appreciate knowing the title and author of the book that you mentioned above.

 

Regards,

Kareni