Is this explainable?

[MicheleB]

My boys have a severe visual-perceptual processing disorder. My oldest is almost 12 and can read CVC words and some words that he has "memorized" by shape and context.

 

We are doing a cyberschool this year. For the most part, I like it. We will be starting Barton soon with oldest boy, hopefully soon with 10yo.

 

The problem I run into is this: because my oldest can not distinguish 'p' 'b' 'q' 'd' from each other, everyone tries to teach him cute little tricks like the 'bed' trick, etc. However, it is NOT that he can't remember those tricks. It is that when he sees the 'b', to his brain the stem might very well be pointing downward. So the tricks don't help.

 

The reason he reads what he can now is that he memorizes shapes and sights of words and uses context. So yes, he reads a lot more than he did a few years ago, but he still reads at a basic 2nd grade level... maybe.

 

If he reads for more than 5 minutes, his brain and eyes become very fatigued and he begins to make lots of mistakes. Especially if "concepts" are mixed, such as: Cam ran and Sal sat in a bag. Too many different endings to process quickly for him.

 

So he's told to slow down. But it's not really these issues- learning cute tricks or slowing down.

 

I sent in the neuropsych reports to the school and they "consider" them, but of course they have to do their own testing, which they are. However, I don't believe typical psych-ed testing will show the v-p processing disorder like the neuropsych eval does.

 

So.... if you've dealt with this or have good ideas about *how* to relay the info, repeatedly if needed, I'd love your ideas. I just don't see how we can be successful if the overarching reason for dss' reading issues are not properly understood. And maybe I'm expecting too much from the school??

 

(My brother is a special educator and is willing to go to the IEP meeting and review of testing with me, which will probably be in January... so if that can work into any plan you might think of...)

[Guest]

How much and what kind of vision therapy have your boys done?

 

I sympathize with the "bed" trick not working, because for years everyone tried to get dd to distinguish left from right with the "Make an L with your hands" trick. In a manner similar to your sons, she perceived the L as "correct" no matter what direction it was facing. (She still can't reliably tell left from right at age 14, but she now does recognize which direction a proper L faces so she can now finally use that trick).

 

Dd didn't have the reading problems you describe, but she had many others, particularly in writing and with numbers. Vision therapy was a gift for her -- but that said, she had two rounds of it and the first, paper-based and geared solely at reading strategies, was a flop for her. What worked was a more integrative type of therapy that was kind of like both OT and VT combined. There was lots of work to coordinate eyes, brain, hands, and body position in space. There was a lot of work with balls on a string, things like tearing paper in patterns, balancing on a balance board while doing visual and fine motor tasks, etc. This really helped dd turn a corner, and while she still has problems with directionality in a larger sense (out in the world), the writing and numbers problems have almost entirely disappeared.

 

Not all kinds of VT are created equal, and one type might work where another fails to produce results for a particular child. You're describing some fairly severe problems, so investigating a few different types of therapy might be worth while. Were your boys officially diagnosed as dyslexic? If so, I'd also look for either a VT person or an educational tutor experienced with dyslexics and give it six months to a year, if you can possibly afford it, to see if that helps.

 

If you've already gone the VT route please disregard all this! It's just what made a huge difference for dd -- that and probably just simple aging and neurological maturation.

[HeidiD]

My boys have a severe visual-perceptual processing disorder. My oldest is almost 12 and can read CVC words and some words that he has "memorized" by shape and context.

 

We are doing a cyberschool this year. For the most part, I like it. We will be starting Barton soon with oldest boy, hopefully soon with 10yo.

 

The problem I run into is this: because my oldest can not distinguish 'p' 'b' 'q' 'd' from each other, everyone tries to teach him cute little tricks like the 'bed' trick, etc. However, it is NOT that he can't remember those tricks. It is that when he sees the 'b', to his brain the stem might very well be pointing downward. So the tricks don't help.

 

The reason he reads what he can now is that he memorizes shapes and sights of words and uses context. So yes, he reads a lot more than he did a few years ago, but he still reads at a basic 2nd grade level... maybe.

 

If he reads for more than 5 minutes, his brain and eyes become very fatigued and he begins to make lots of mistakes. Especially if "concepts" are mixed, such as: Cam ran and Sal sat in a bag. Too many different endings to process quickly for him.

 

So he's told to slow down. But it's not really these issues- learning cute tricks or slowing down.

 

I sent in the neuropsych reports to the school and they "consider" them, but of course they have to do their own testing, which they are. However, I don't believe typical psych-ed testing will show the v-p processing disorder like the neuropsych eval does.

 

So.... if you've dealt with this or have good ideas about *how* to relay the info, repeatedly if needed, I'd love your ideas. I just don't see how we can be successful if the overarching reason for dss' reading issues are not properly understood. And maybe I'm expecting too much from the school??

 

(My brother is a special educator and is willing to go to the IEP meeting and review of testing with me, which will probably be in January... so if that can work into any plan you might think of...)

 

I think you're right - if the underlying causes aren't addressed, progress will be really slow.

 

I didn't realize cyberschools operated like public schools, with IEP meetings. I never had much luck introducing outside assessments at IEP meetings when my daughter was in school - they simply disregarded them. There's no effective way of relaying info people don't want to hear and don't legally have to address. Bringing your brother as an advocate hopefully will help.

 

What tests did your neuropsych administer to diagnose the visual/spatial processing disorder? Just curious, because my son's report only lists one test, NEPSY-II Arrows Subtest under visual Spatial (his score range says "borderline", whatever that means).

 

I have two children with this problem, and they've progressed because we've done the types of things that KarenAnne recommends in her post (not through a vision therapist, but on our own with vision therapy manuals, karate, swimming, balance board). Plus I had them read a lot, despite the fact that it was so onerous, and they gradually improved over time. So my son with the "borderline" score on the arrow test gets 98 percentile on achievement tests. I have no idea how to interpret this, or what he's seeing or not seeing (he does tend to skip words, reverse things and put decimals in the wrong place). I really sympathize with you - this is a hard problem to deal with. :crying:

[MicheleB]

 

What tests did your neuropsych administer to diagnose the visual/spatial processing disorder? Just curious, because my son's report only lists one test, NEPSY-II Arrows Subtest under visual Spatial (his score range says "borderline", whatever that means).

 

 

 

I'll list all the tests given, since I don't really know which will give you the information... :)

 

NEUROPSYCHOLOGY TESTS

 

WISC for Children-IV

WRAT Memory and Learning-2

Rey-Osterreith Complex Figure (copy and recall)

Early Reading Success Indicator

 

I'm really ignorant about tests and their subtests, but this is what is written within the report itself:

 

secondary visual processing (perception of spatial arrangements, orientations and abstract/geometric shapes)

rapid letter naming

coding

constructional tasks

drawing task

motor processing

 

OT TESTS

VMI with the visual -perceptual subtest and motor subtest

 

We did OT for a while at our local hospital but it was pretty much useless and somehow they determined that neither of my boys were needful of OT. So then we went to a pediatric clinic about 1 1/2 away, which showed pretty significant delays in testing and we did OT there for several months (balance board, writing, exercises to help them with their v-p disorder). But the distance was just too much so we stopped for now.

 

As far as the cyberschool goes, I am really pleased with it thus far. Even though both my boys have the exact same issues and are very behind grade level in reading and being able to make sense of print, AND this is our first year with the school, they allowed my boys to be in the same grade level (so that teaching them -for me- would be doable) and have given them many accomodations so far. They also offer the Barton program, which my almost 12 yo will be starting soon and hopefully my 10 yo as well.

 

It's just the regular teacher where I find I run into the "bed" type instruction. And I could pull my hair out because sometimes I just want to say, "He's almost 12. Do you think we really never thought of using little 'tricks' to help him remember?" KWIM? But, I know she's trying to help us.

 

I am wondering what the school testing will show. They are doing an OT, Speech and Language and psych-ed testing, with behavioral rating.

 

I mainly did this because I felt I needed a paper trail of public school documentation for services they boys may need as they progress into the higher grades, and for the Barton program, which we can't afford. We also have not been able to afford VT and with the seeming 50/50 reviews I read on here about VT, it wasn't worth the gamble for us at this time anyway.

 

Thanks, ladies! :)

[Guest]

It's just the regular teacher where I find I run into the "bed" type instruction. And I could pull my hair out because sometimes I just want to say, "He's almost 12. Do you think we really never thought of using little 'tricks' to help him remember?" KWIM? But, I know she's trying to help us.

 

Oh, how I sympathize with this! I got the "hold up your hands and make L's" thing from EVERYBODY we ran into. Drove me wild.

[MicheleB]

Oh, how I sympathize with this! I got the "hold up your hands and make L's" thing from EVERYBODY we ran into. Drove me wild.

 

I know!! The one speech therapist who told my ds this, well, I think she may have seen me actually rolling my eyes. :lol:

 

I wanted to say, "If he knew which way 'L' was supposed to face, it would be helpful.... "

[PeterPan]

Michele, not to state the obvious, but given that you know they have visual processing problems, you're probably passing by the #1 thing to help them in VT. GOOD vision therapy is very good. I'm not sure why you're saying the reviews around here are 50/50. You have one poster who chose not to do it and tells her reasons why. You have one poster who did it with someone who sounds really hair-brained compared to the experiences of everyone else (the therapist gave them minimal tasks, etc.). And then you have quite a few people on here, numerous posters, who have done VT with their kids and gotten ASTOUNDING benefit.

 

I don't know, do what you want. I just suggest you reconsider VT, since it would directly address the identified issues. VT with an OT is not the same as VT with a COVD certified therapist. They shake the same stick, but from different ends. I would definitely drive multiple hours to get VT. The results for us have been profound.

[MicheleB]

I see what you are saying, OhE- I guess I was using a culmination of many people here over the past few years, since I've been posting, anyway.

 

But the cost is just something we cannot cover and have not been able to cover. Especially for two boys, and the distance we would have to drive.

 

I feel terrible about it, like we're putting a price on our children's success, but we just can't do it.

 

I did get my hopes up about 2 years ago- the director of therapy at our local hospital was arranging for the Lions Club to pay for most of the boys' therapy. But then for some reason they switched it to us paying out a few thousand along with what the Lions would help us with. It was very disappointing.

 

*SIGH* It's just difficult all the way around.

[PeterPan]

I really understand about the money thing. We had to wait a while till some money came in too. Thing is, some of these private offices have a price tiers and significant aid to bring it in reach for people. Where we go they pretty much don't want to turn away people over money. It's a large practice, with lots of therapists and clients, not just a single doc, so I guess they can eat it better. So you might do some checking on the docs say within a two hour drive to find a larger practice like that and see if they have any aid. Our place drops down the cost very very low and then has payment plans.

 

The other thing is to start with your older or more afflicted child and do the homework at home with both. It's not a permanent solution, but it lets you get started with less cost.

 

Keep checking. Our VT place is 90% off at the max discount. That means you'd be paying $50 a month, not thousands.

[HeidiD]

I see what you are saying, OhE- I guess I was using a culmination of many people here over the past few years, since I've been posting, anyway.

 

But the cost is just something we cannot cover and have not been able to cover. Especially for two boys, and the distance we would have to drive.

 

I feel terrible about it, like we're putting a price on our children's success, but we just can't do it.

 

 

 

Data points such as the following (as well as the cost) are the reasons we've been hesitant to pursue VT:

 

"In 1998, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Ophthalmology, and American Association for Pediatric Ophthalmology and Strabismus issued a policy statement regarding the use of vision therapy specifically for the treatment of learning problems and dyslexia. According to the statement: "No scientific evidence exists for the efficacy of eye exercises ('vision therapy')... in the remediation of these complex pediatric neurological conditions." In 2004, the American Academy of Ophthalmology released a similar position statement asserting that there is no evidence that vision therapy retards the progression of myopia, that it improves visual function in those with hyperopia or astigmatism, or that it improves vision lost through disease processes."

 

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Vision_therapy

 

 

Other neurological problems such as CAPD (which we are also dealing with) can't be completely cured or fixed, only accommodated, and from what I've read, certain brain-based visual processing problems fall into the same category, so that may help to explain the mixed reviews you see on VT.

 

In Don McCabe's book about his dyslexia, he decribes various natural approaches that strengthened his abilities - playing cards with his grandfather, wallowing around in the lake until he figured out how to swim in his own way (a crossing the midline activity), etc.

 

So if you can't afford VT, don't feel like you're ruining your kids' futures - there are other things you can do to enhance processing. :001_smile:

[MicheleB]

So if you can't afford VT, don't feel like you're ruining your kids' futures - there are other things you can do to enhance processing. :001_smile:

 

Thanks, Heidi. It does feel that way, sometimes!

 

I do see improvements with my dss. I have to look at it year-to-year, but it's there. They do LOTS of sports and physical activities and I think that helps them in many ways. Plus I'm sure we all do things with our kids everyday that we don't even think about as being therapeutic, but really are.

 

I also believe we are dealing with CAPD as well. The ST that is doing the initial evaluations for our cyberschool is looking into audiologists that do CAPD testing. We have had difficulty finding someone!

 

I know reading isn't the only issue with my boys and sometimes I think if I could just "fix" the reading all would be well. But it's so many other things as well, so we keep plugging away piece by piece in ways that work for us.

 

And thanks agian, OhE- I have looked into several places for VT and all have quoted pretty much similar prices. Even when I've told them we can't afford it, no one has offered a discount or pricing tier. Maybe we'll have to go through another round of making calls and asking again. That would be great. There is a new clinic about an hour away from us, but it's in the town I grew up in so I feel very familiar with the area. I was pretty excited about it as it was recommended through the boys' regular eye doctor. The regular eye doctor does VT, but he said his isn't comprehensive enough for our boys' problems (and I really appreciated that honesty!!), so he recommended this other guy. He was very willing to talk with me and discuss VT until I said finances were a concern, then I never heard from him again. But I might just give his office another call and see what he might be willing to work out. Thanks for mentioning that. :)

[PeterPan]

Heidi, that article lumps a ton of issues together, which isn't really reasonable. Sure if you just blanket "treated" dyslexia with VT, it would be a shot in the dark. But if you actually have a focusing or convergence issue and you specifically treat it with something that is effective for focusing and convergence problems (VT), then you're going to see a change. And if you have vision processing (perception) problems that are the result of the child not previously having proper focusing and convergence, then of course continuing into the vision processing stage of VT will help that. But no, just to blanket treat a variety of ails (as I have heard some docs do), THAT is not reasonable. I think even docs who do VT agree there are things it is very good at and things that it is NOT considered good for. All that article said was if you treat a bunch of big picture neurological problems by shooting in the dark (not with a specific diagnosis), then you're not going to get a good result. Well duh.

[wapiti]

But I might just give his office another call and see what he might be willing to work out.

 

When you call, maybe you could ask whether they'd be willing to give you more home exercises at each visit, with fewer therapy visits (say, biweekly or monthly), due to both the distance and the expense. Worst they can do is say no. Good luck!

[siloam]

It is rare, but I have had my moments where all the tricks in the world wouldn't work, and I just can't remember. This is especially with flipping. I have sat there and through my right hand is the hand I write with and then chosen my left thinking I write with it. Unless I pick up a pencil and actually try to write with it I won't figure out my mistake for a while. I have to have some sort of reset. Someone telling me I am wrong, picking up the pencil and trying to write with my left hand or doing something wrong and not having it work out.

 

The Barton helps are better than the rest that I have seen so far, and much simpler, because they really don't rely on the child remembering up and down, the helps give you up and down. D is learned as not b and q is not p. They only learn a help for b/p. Much simpler than other helps I have seen.

 

Heather

[Guest]

It is rare, but I have had my moments where all the tricks in the world wouldn't work, and I just can't remember. This is especially with flipping. I have sat there and through my right hand is the hand I write with and then chosen my left thinking I write with it. Unless I pick up a pencil and actually try to write with it I won't figure out my mistake for a while. I have to have some sort of reset. Someone telling me I am wrong, picking up the pencil and trying to write with my left hand or doing something wrong and not having it work out.

 

 

 

Wow-- this is mind-blowing for me because this is the type of specific amnesia that affects dd, particularly forgetting or not being able to say which hand she writes with! The only way she has been able to consistently tell left from right is really odd: it's when she's with horses. She never has to think twice or use her "L" hand thing; she just knows. This does NOT seem to transfer to anything else whatever.

 

Do you do this with other things, like eating utensils? Or is it writing specific?

[HeidiD]

Heidi, that article lumps a ton of issues together, which isn't really reasonable. Sure if you just blanket "treated" dyslexia with VT, it would be a shot in the dark. But if you actually have a focusing or convergence issue and you specifically treat it with something that is effective for focusing and convergence problems (VT), then you're going to see a change. And if you have vision processing (perception) problems that are the result of the child not previously having proper focusing and convergence, then of course continuing into the vision processing stage of VT will help that. But no, just to blanket treat a variety of ails (as I have heard some docs do), THAT is not reasonable. I think even docs who do VT agree there are things it is very good at and things that it is NOT considered good for. All that article said was if you treat a bunch of big picture neurological problems by shooting in the dark (not with a specific diagnosis), then you're not going to get a good result. Well duh.

 

I agree with you, OhElizabeth - focusing and convergence problems can be identified and remediated, and for people whose reading problems are the result of these issues, VT is a wonderful thing. There are also brain imaging studies which appear to indicate that the "visual processing" problem for many dyslexics is "a mismatch between seeing the letter and connecting it to the sound it represents or vice-versa", something that vision therapy can't correct. The high frequency of auditory processing problems among this same group is notable as well. So not everyone is going to benefit from VT, and I suspect that's why there are negative as well as positive reviews from people who've tried it.

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/111010.php

 

 

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/hd/news/625018.brain-scans-shed-light-on-dyslexia.htm

[siloam]

Wow-- this is mind-blowing for me because this is the type of specific amnesia that affects dd, particularly forgetting or not being able to say which hand she writes with! The only way she has been able to consistently tell left from right is really odd: it's when she's with horses. She never has to think twice or use her "L" hand thing; she just knows. This does NOT seem to transfer to anything else whatever.

 

Do you do this with other things, like eating utensils? Or is it writing specific?

 

The most common way I do flipping is with directions. I have argued tooth and nail with dh about which direction he is going, dead sure he was going in the wrong way. It isn't till we hit some landmark that should not be there, that it will suddenly click and I will realize I had flipped the whole think in my mind. We now have a thing where he will just tell me that I am doing it and that I need to trust him, and he has been right every single time.

 

When I am by myself I just drive the wrong way till it dawns on me, generally because of a landmark, that I am going in the wrong direction, then I turn around.

 

I also have to be really careful when I sew, but generally I am on my guard and make less errors.

 

The other big thing I struggle with is names. I forget close friends of 10+ years names regularly. Given enough time it will come to me. I did it just the other day with a gal that I have know for 5 years at church. Now she isn't a close friend, but you would think 5 years of working on VBS with her would count for something. Took me a day and a half to remember her name. Generally with close friends I can remember their names within an hour, but it is so frustrating to have to say, "You know who that was at the birth of all our children and just here Saturday." :rolleyes:

 

Heather

[Guest]

The flipping thing is so fascinating (although I'm sure very frustrating and perplexing for you). I recently came across a linguistics book that talked about "geographical" languages -- languages in which people describe the locations of things entirely differently than we do. Where we would say, "Move your left foot forward and raise your right arm out to the side," they don't use their individual bodies as a center or orientation point at all. They'd say things like, "Move your west foot _____ (measurement amount) toward the northeast." When something is behind them, they point to their chests, but they're not indicating themselves; their bodies are assumed to be transparent or non-solid in some way, so that the directionality goes on regardless. They tell stories depending on which way the people who are listening are facing!!!

 

As I read that, because of dd's directionality problems I was immediately wondering whether constant training and practice in this type of thinking would have prevented her from having such mix-ups regarding the location of her body in space. Would anybody who grew up in such a culture have a spatial/perceptual/directional disability? How disabling would it be in a culture and with a language like this?

 

There was an interesting note that when people from groups who spoke this type of language were moved to urban environments their language got all mixed up. They relied on a relatively stable and knowable geographical setting, and on years of close observation to this setting.

[siloam]

The flipping thing is so fascinating (although I'm sure very frustrating and perplexing for you). I recently came across a linguistics book that talked about "geographical" languages -- languages in which people describe the locations of things entirely differently than we do. Where we would say, "Move your left foot forward and raise your right arm out to the side," they don't use their individual bodies as a center or orientation point at all. They'd say things like, "Move your west foot _____ (measurement amount) toward the northeast." When something is behind them, they point to their chests, but they're not indicating themselves; their bodies are assumed to be transparent or non-solid in some way, so that the directionality goes on regardless. They tell stories depending on which way the people who are listening are facing!!!

 

As I read that, because of dd's directionality problems I was immediately wondering whether constant training and practice in this type of thinking would have prevented her from having such mix-ups regarding the location of her body in space. Would anybody who grew up in such a culture have a spatial/perceptual/directional disability? How disabling would it be in a culture and with a language like this?

 

There was an interesting note that when people from groups who spoke this type of language were moved to urban environments their language got all mixed up. They relied on a relatively stable and knowable geographical setting, and on years of close observation to this setting.

 

It is interesting, and I am not offended at all. I am at this age fine with who I am, well maybe minus a few pounds. ;)

 

Using west, east, north and south does work better for me than right and left. If I get things flipped though everything flips in my mind, so it isn't a cure, but thinking of a bigger area does help. What works best is having something sitting in the next seat point and saying go that way. :D

 

Funny but I had no problems when I used to dance, just like your dd doesn't have problems with horses. I can't remember ever flipping a routine, and while I have memory issues with spelling and math facts I never forgot a routine.

 

Heather

[Guest]

One of the funniest things I ever came across was a story, I think by Linda Silverman online, about how she -- who works with visual-spatially oriented kids -- drove into a gas station and went up to the pumps with the gas cap on the wrong side, away from the pump. So she got back in the car, backed up, turned around, pulled in again -- and the cap was still on the wrong side. She did this about four times; a crowd of guys lined up at the window to the cashier/store watching her in utter disbelief as she made the exact same directional mistake every single time.

 

It was really funny because she made it so herself, but I felt like I was getting a glimpse of dd in adulthood!

[NCW]

It is rare, but I have had my moments where all the tricks in the world wouldn't work, and I just can't remember. This is especially with flipping. I have sat there and through my right hand is the hand I write with and then chosen my left thinking I write with it. Unless I pick up a pencil and actually try to write with it I won't figure out my mistake for a while. I have to have some sort of reset. Someone telling me I am wrong, picking up the pencil and trying to write with my left hand or doing something wrong and not having it work out.

 

 

 

Fascinating thread. Just wondering if this is the kind of experience Davis was referring to in his book "Gift of Dyslexia" with the exercises he details about fixing the mind's eye slightly behind and above the head. Any clue?? It was years ago that I read his book.

[MicheleB]

KarenAnne, that story reminds me of myself! And it is interesting to me, as over the last few years I've learned more about my dss' issues, that I have many similar ones, yet so different.

 

For example, we take evening drives a lot in the summers to look for deer. I have a very difficult time picking out deer against a background (trees, high grass, etc). I also am not good with details. I have some face blindness which causes a terrible time in recognizing people, especially outside of their "element." I am not good at putting puzzles together.

 

But- I never, ever had difficulty reading, learning to read, writing, with numbers like my boys do. My 10yo has a lot of the issues I mentioned about myself- figureground problems, recognizing people, etc.

 

But in addition to the not making sense of print (which, by the way, they were not diagnosed as "dyslexic" except for the neuropsych to say that all dyslexia means is 'trouble reading.'), they also have difficulty with opposites, like refrigerator/freezer; washer/dryer. Or, similar groups, such as 3 cousins they've known all their lives, but all their names begin with "M" and they are just starting to get them straight.

 

The refrigerator/freezer, washer/dryer and the like problems are interesting to me, because it is "reverse" of what it should be- much like them writing b,q,d,p wrong, or reversing numbers and letters. And yet, it's not the same process (at least I don't think it is).

 

Yes, very fascinating thread. Lots of good ideas!

[TAKlinda]

Use dot patterns for letter and number reversals.

Linda

[gardenmom5]

My boys have a severe visual-perceptual processing disorder.

So.... if you've dealt with this or have good ideas about *how* to relay the info, repeatedly if needed, I'd love your ideas. I just don't see how we can be successful if the overarching reason for dss' reading issues are not properly understood.

 

What therapy are they receiving? are you doing any form of visual therapy to help the foundation of the problem?