Question for horse people

[Journey]

my horse has us baffled. She is a 12 year old TB who has been off the track for 9 years. We've owned her for 5 years and she is quite spoiled. She has been doing something though that I have never heard of or seen a horse do and I don't know whether to be concerned or just annoyed. Around springtime this year, she was getting her shoes on...she has had shoes for about a year and a half, maybe more. This particular time though, she was AWFUL....rearing, striking out, walking away....she wanted to be outside where all of the other horses were. It took about 2 hours to get two shoes on and her back feet trimmed. The day (or two) after this, my daughter went out to ride her and when she went to pick up her front feet to pick them, the horse started to go down. I think she may have gone down on her front knees I can't remember. Well it FREAKED me out and I quickly called the BO over and asked him what it could be. He thought she could be colicking, which she has never done. (she wasn't colicking). This all happened while she was on the concrete on cross ties. We took her outside on the grass and tried to pick her feet up again and I can't remember if she went down again. She did this a couple of other times so I called the vet. He did a complete exam and she was FINE. She didn't even attempt to go down. Okay fast forward to the other day.....new barn.....the farrier was out last Wednesday and what I am going to tell you about now happened last Friday...two days after the farrier. I now "paste" her before the farrier comes with a calming supplement from SmartPak. This stuff works like magic by the way. So, she was standing on the cross ties again....remember new barn....(oh the Wednesday farrier visit) was PERFECT, she was a gem (love the calming paste) but when my daughter went to back her up....on the cross ties (probably to move her over or something)that Friday, she started to go down again. My daughter quickly gave her a smack on her stomach...and she stood up. My daughter seems to think that she was falling asleep and not paying attention. I'm not sure. She is perfectly fine when she's being ridden. At this new barn the BO is starting some Clinton Anderson ground work with her and the weekend before this last time it happened he was in the indoor with her. She was having a hard time backing up (because she's not really good at it in the first place, we don't practice it alot with her) and so I'm wondering if she's relating all of this "bad" stuff....bad farrier experience that one time and the back backing experience this last time....I don't know if she's smart enough to "play" us even though she is VERY spoiled or if she is truly afraid of something. I just worry so much about her that one day she's just going to tip over and die. Have any of you ever heard of such a thing? When we were at the old barn where she started this behavior, she did it several times but it seemed like she would really only do it more when she was standing on concrete. When she was in her stall she would start to go down on occasion but never when she was standing on the grass.

[simka2]

I actually did have a lesson horse that started doing something similar at my old barn. When we would go to tighten the girth she would go down on her knees. It didn't matter if I did this slowly or fast, and it too started on concrete. She would work fine, but it freaked me out. Eventually it seemed to resolve itself. My only guess is that it was something she ate or a virus she caught, that then turned into a learned behavior.

 

Thinking back I'm pretty sure I started saddleing her in the arena, to throw her off and it seemed to work.

 

Is she on any supplements/minerals? It might be that her iron is low. The only other thing we had going right before that was white clover, which can cause dehydration.

 

Unfortunately, as you know, with horses there are hundreds of possible factors and its difficult to find the common denominator. Once you've done everything you can, all you can do is your best by them.

 

As far as the backing goes, I would start over with her training on it. And somehow train her differently, if you haven't used treats as a reward...start. If your not super verbal..become so. Mess with her world ;) One good happy step backward and praise, praise, praise...and be done. Then try it again in a couple days.

 

Hope that helps!!!

[simka2]

Did the vet do a full blood panel?

[Journey]

Simka...he didn't do a full blood work up at that visit but she had one done last year or something and she was fine. She is on Cosequin and a smartpak calming pellet but has been for awhile. I never think of "learned behavior" because I never think they are smart enough which is silly becasue this horse is smart as a whip. She has become very girthy in the last couple of months maybe right around when all of this started but she has never gone down when we've tightened her girth so not sure if that has anything to do with this or not.

[simka2]

Is she being ridden in an arena a lot? I might find a way to get her out into a pasture for a couple months mental detox. If you guys ride her during that time, I would have it be trail and pasture riding. TB's are very similar to my arabs, and very smart!!!

 

Dd's horse was pulled from a lesson program and only pasture ridden for awhile. It did wonders!!! Sometimes they just have to be a "horse" again!!! ;) Even when dd rode her in the pasture we worked on Eq, built some fences, circles and serpentenes.

 

I have become a huge believer in keeping the "high strung" horses as natural and free as possible. I think their type A personalities are prone to OCD type behaviors ;)

[Journey]

We usually just do ring work, inside and out and I agree that switching it up is a good idea but since there aren't really any trails around our barn, we are in a total hunter/jumper area that would be hard. I have my daughter doing alot of transitions to keep the horse always thinking. I'm wondering if she's not a bit depressed now though. Since we moved barns at the beginning of October, she only goes out about 2 hours a day where the one better thing about our old barn was that she was out at least 8 hours a day. I know she can adjust but it's going to take a while. She LOVES, loves, loves being outside and it breaks my heart that she can't do it now, but the one good thing is that at the old barn they were out in freezing cold and blasting hot weather with no shelter. At least now that it's getting colder (NYS) she won't have to be out in freezing temps and she BETTER be thankful for that! Since I think she's depressed I'm thinking of taking her off the Smartpak calming supplements to see if that brings any change in her.

[Cindyg]

Journey,

 

I don't really have any advice for this problem. It is certainly possible that a horse could doze off or even lose his balance when you pick up a foot and he's not expecting it. But the initial incident makes me suspect that there was an original health/pain something that caused the bad behavior for the farrier.

 

I am not inclined to think that most horses play games or analyze that a given behavior will get him out of later work. I just don't think their minds work that way. I think they live in moment, and if they are hurt, mad, or scared, they react. It's our endless challenge to try to guess the root cause of their hurt, mad, or scared. (And I am not inclined to think the root cause is that she's spoiled. Though I'm always in favor of bettering your horsemanship.)

 

If it were me, and since you've already talked to the vet, which should always be your first line of attack, I would post the question on a horse board and see what advice you get. There's a lot of knowledge over at The Chronicle of the Horse. I'd probably put this on the Horse Care forum.

 

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I would be beside myself if my horse were doing this, and I know every time you call the vet, it's like putting an IV from your bank account to your vet's bank account. There's only so much investigative stuff one can do.

 

Let us know what you learn.

[ma23peas]

my horse has us baffled. When we were at the old barn where she started this behavior, she did it several times but it seemed like she would really only do it more when she was standing on concrete. When she was in her stall she would start to go down on occasion but never when she was standing on the grass.

 

 

It could be a simple sole or heel bruising, especially with tenderness on concrete...thoroughbreds can have joint damage from their years on the track and it starts to show up around now, navicular syndrome is also a consideration..is she 'tender' footed AFTER her shoes are put on? Do you allow her to go barefoot half the year to rebuild up her sole? I believe it is pain related and it's almost like a reflex...horses generally will not 'go down' to avoid work or instruction...they may rear back, pull away, turn their butt to you, but not go down....it's harder for them to pull themselves up..but if there's a tender spot all they can think of is the quickest means to end the pain...going down takes that pressure off...they are very smart...

 

Good luck and work on that backing!! :)

Tara

[ColoradoMom]

This could be entirely psychological. Horses are known more for their over-reactions than their brilliant deduction skills.

[Journey]

Ma23peas....she doesn't have navicular thank goodness, she was tested for that this summer when she started doing this. We are going to pull her shoes at the next farrier visit. Her feet are terrible according to the farrier as most ex-race horses are so we are totally up on what is going on with her feet. I can't help but think it has something to do with the farrier but I also can't help but think that this is now a learned behavior. I do believe this horse is smart enough to really think alot of things. I just don't know. Also, to whoever mentioned putting this on the horse boards...I've already done that and believe it or not, no one on COTH had any answers either!

[Cindyg]

Ma23peas....she doesn't have navicular thank goodness, she was tested for that this summer when she started doing this. We are going to pull her shoes at the next farrier visit. Her feet are terrible according to the farrier as most ex-race horses are so we are totally up on what is going on with her feet. I can't help but think it has something to do with the farrier but I also can't help but think that this is now a learned behavior. I do believe this horse is smart enough to really think alot of things. I just don't know. Also, to whoever mentioned putting this on the horse boards...I've already done that and believe it or not, no one on COTH had any answers either!

 

Did you post on COTH under the name Journey? I'd like to read the discussion.

[Journey]

no I have a different name on there and I hope you don't mind but I'd like to remain annonymous. thanks!

[Isabella]

We once went to look at a horse to buy. She was cross tied on a concrete floor, too. We just ran our hands down the inside of her front legs, and she started going down. Scared us, and the lady whose place it was (not the owner, was selling her for someone else) didn't really know, but said she was a very sensitive horse, and perhaps we touched a pressure point.

We ended up buying her - she was a very sensitive soul, beautiful buckskin, and we never saw her do that again, but also, we never had her on concrete again. So, just to let you know there may not be any problem, just a scare reaction or something of the sort.