Hornblower (and others)--need foster dog advice

[Beth in OH]

Hi--

 

I foster dogs for a collie rescue, and I have my own golden retriever. Yesterday I picked up a rescue that the shelter believed to be a tri-color, smooth coat collie mix. Well...., she is tri color and does have a fairly long nose, but she also weighs at least 80 lbs and has a tail that is bushy and curls up over her back. There's a lot of non-collie in there! (malamute? husky? akita?)

 

She's 2-3 years old, no obedience skills, very people friendly and not a fearful dog. She's been with me for 24 hours, and I've gotten some basics covered--she's met the family, met the golden, we've done lots of walking (she has responded well to a gentle leader), and today I gave her a bath. That's a full plate for a dog who had been a stray.

 

Things have become progessively calmer over the course of the 24 hours. Lucy is very attentive to me, which is good, and I'll start working some obedience with her tomorrow. The one area where I need some additional advice and tools for the toolbox is in the area of socialization. As I said, she's fine with people, but at best she's bossy with other dogs, and she's very people possessive. So far, I've tried to redirect her at the first signs of possessiveness, but it's only marginally successful. Do you have any suggestions on how to address this while we're working on establishing our relationship? It's obviously important for her to be well-mannered given her size--I want her to be adoptable!

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Beth

[hornblower]

I'd do classical conditioning with this. Pull out a clicker - or not - but either way, I'd feed her yummies while other dogs mill around you also.

 

So I'd be stuffing her face with a bunch of treats, one after another from one hand (put a bunch of small treats in your fist & gradually lightly open your fingers to dispense a few treats at a time.) while you also treat or fuss over your golden.

 

I'd hand feed her all her meals actually & make it clear you make the rules. If she knows a sit, ask her to sit, give her a whole bunch of food, then move, ask her to follow you, give her a bunch of food for coming, ask for a sit, etc etc etc. Dole out the whole meal this way. At first I would do this without your dog being near, or maybe near but behind a baby gate (chuck treats for your golden over the gate every once in a while) or in a crate.

 

It's hard to know how serious this is without seeing it & also, on the first day you're seeing a lot of stress related bhvr.

 

My current foster is a big self assured bossy pants but he's totally benign. Not all dogs appreciate him because he's a bull in the china shop kind of dog & if he were a man, he'd be the kind who'd punch everyone in the arm. Playfully but not always appreciated kwim?

 

How is your golden reacting? Is your golden acting fearful? Ignoring Lucy? Trying to calm her (lip licking, yawning, tongue flicking on nose, turning head away)? Sometimes we get a better idea of what's going on with one dog by watching how other dogs react.

 

One of my dogs is an insecure jealous guy but he's too chicken to challenge anyone or push them away. He just gets increasingly anxious and upset but it's really the same process - they need to learn that being patient pays, that 'sharing' you also pays, that other dogs being nearby pays.

[Beth in OH]

My golden was a rescue who was in a cell dog program being prepared for service dog training, until at 7 months, they decided that she wasn't a good fit (very excitable with new people, unpredictable, and not really confident in new situations). All of that is to say that she has some good socialization skills, and is coping pretty well with the situation. She responds pretty submissively to Lucy and does a fair bit of keeping her distance, but she doesn't seem fearful, and tries to engage Lucy in some playing. There has been a little bit of a "walking chase" game, and there is some give and take as to who is doing the "chasing". My golden has shared her toys, but she hasn't been a pushover, and Lucy has been respectful. I see lots of signs that these two will work things out.

 

The added stressor has been that I'm dog sitting my sister's golden, who is quite dominant, and doesn't seem to have a lot of dog skills herself. She and Lucy have clashed, and Sis's golden is keeping her distance. I would say that she has shown some fear. She's only going to be here for a week, though.

 

 

 

 

I'd do classical conditioning with this. Pull out a clicker - or not - but either way, I'd feed her yummies while other dogs mill around you also.

 

So I'd be stuffing her face with a bunch of treats, one after another from one hand (put a bunch of small treats in your fist & gradually lightly open your fingers to dispense a few treats at a time.) while you also treat or fuss over your golden.

 

Great idea, and it didn't even occur to me. I just tried it, and Lucy was very receptive. Not a peep out of her when the other dogs got lots of love!

 

I'd hand feed her all her meals actually & make it clear you make the rules. If she knows a sit, ask her to sit, give her a whole bunch of food, then move, ask her to follow you, give her a bunch of food for coming, ask for a sit, etc etc etc. Dole out the whole meal this way. At first I would do this without your dog being near, or maybe near but behind a baby gate (chuck treats for your golden over the gate every once in a while) or in a crate.

 

We don't have a sit yet, but I can modify this approach until we do. I've seen you pass along this advice before, but I've never needed to use it. Is it something that should promote a change in how the dog responds to me or is it more foundational. I guess, in other words, how do I know if it's helping?

 

It's hard to know how serious this is without seeing it & also, on the first day you're seeing a lot of stress related bhvr.

 

I totally get this, and in the course of 24 hours I've already seen improvement consistent with other dogs that I've fostered. Right now, I think it's too early to call an intervention, but I did want to make sure I was doing everything I could to help the dog pack work everything out. Ideally, I'd like Lucy to be able to handle all types of multiple dog situations. It will greatly increase her chances for a successful adoption!

 

Thanks for the time you invest in writing these responses! I've learned a lot and have saved many of your links!

 

Beth

[hornblower]

We don't have a sit yet, but I can modify this approach until we do. I've seen you pass along this advice before, but I've never needed to use it. Is it something that should promote a change in how the dog responds to me or is it more foundational. I guess, in other words, how do I know if it's helping?

 

 

 

It's something that I think increases the relevancy of the human very fast. For many dogs, people are just kind of fun sometimes & a pita other times; they don't necessarily think we're that important. It's a relatively easy step to take but I wouldn't do it forever. For a dog with no issues, for just days - maybe up to two weeks? I did it with my malamutex for about a month. With my setter not at all :) He's a total suck.

 

For a dog with resource guarding issues, or rude, uppity bhvr, or a dog who has dared growl at his person, I'd use it longer with a more rigorous NILIF - "nothing in life is free" program.

 

I think the 'magic' of handfeeding isn't so much the hand feeding - I suspect you can accomplish the same thing with just dropping kibble in a bowl one by one. What we know with dogs is that often the length of a reward is more important than its size. So when training Leslie Neilson's really reliable recall for ex., she advocates 30-60 seconds of feeding the dog after each successful recall. You break apart your little piece of steak or roast chicken into teeny slivers & dole them out while you fuss over the dog. The dog still gets a small cube of food but if you'd just given the whole cube at once, it wouldn't have the same effect.

 

So what I think is happening with the feeding a meal is that it's something that gives you 5-10 minutes of the dog being really focused & interacting with you appropriately.

 

I know people who have done it even with raw food LOL to repair a strong resource guarder - one who wasn't afraid to use teeth to make their point.

 

It works. You'll see it working - you'll see a more attentive, focused dog, more attuned to you & whether you're pleased or not with what's going on - & you can stop & start it whenever you feel like it. I think if you noticed a dog was 'blowing you off' a lot & just tuning you out, or being a brat, then even if it's a dog that's been with you a while would benefit from having the rules changed a bit & hand feeding re-introduced.

 

 

 

I totally get this, and in the course of 24 hours I've already seen improvement consistent with other dogs that I've fostered. Right now, I think it's too early to call an intervention, but I did want to make sure I was doing everything I could to help the dog pack work everything out. Ideally, I'd like Lucy to be able to handle all types of multiple dog situations. It will greatly increase her chances for a successful adoption!

 

Thanks for the time you invest in writing these responses! I've learned a lot and have saved many of your links!

 

Beth

 

When you say Lucy & your sis's golden have clashed - what? Growling? Lip curls? Staring? Just avoiding each other? There is a certain level of posturing and posing which I think is normal when a new member enters a pack. It's kind of a fine balance to walk wrt to how much to intervene. Some dogs really care a lot about these issues & others are 'yeah, whatever, wanna play?' It can take some time to get settled. I reserve the right to break up any interactions (I walk between, & if necessary I can 'bark' pretty loud) & sometimes I'll time-out for bratty bhvr. Then I make them come back & do something (sit, eye contact, down, something, anything - even if it's uncued) and reward. Then I let them get back together.

 

Sometimes I'll break up interactions over & over again to make it clear that I won't tolerate THAT. It's actually something I learned from my mal, who considers herself a hall monitor. At a park one time there was a lab who loved to hump everyone. She not only told him off when he did it to her, she started to intervene anytime he got close to *other* dogs. She was relentless about it.

 

oh & if she's got some northern breed/spitz in her, she may be a bit on the feisty side. They tend to have a lot of personality. My malamute x female can be pretty full of herself sometimes; she likes to come out swinging & THEN, once that's established, then she wants to be friends. :D

 

otoh - female/female interactions can deteriorate to "I'm going to kill you. REALLY!" (much more than male/male or male/female) and you need to be alert.

 

Glad to help - esp. anyone who is fostering!

[Beth in OH]

Thanks for explaining the hand feeding. It all makes sense. I started hand feeding Lucy at supper tonight. I'm looking forward to her learning a few commands so we at least develop some common language of NILIF!

 

 

I think if you noticed a dog was 'blowing you off' a lot & just tuning you out, or being a brat, then even if it's a dog that's been with you a while would benefit from having the rules changed a bit & hand feeding re-introduced.

 

:lol: Maybe my 1 year old golden is in need of some committed hand feeding. OTOH, it might just be her goofy, ADD self!

 

 

When you say Lucy & your sis's golden have clashed - what? Growling? Lip curls? Staring? Just avoiding each other? There is a certain level of posturing and posing which I think is normal when a new member enters a pack.

 

They have done all of these things, which I have also experienced with new dog introductions, but Lucy has also snarled, snapped, lunged. Sometimes she does it without a clear reason. I have stayed close to them since Lucy arrived, and I always break up the snarling, etc. episodes. How do you feel about intervening earlier with these two since it seems to go downhill fast? BTW, all three of these dogs are spayed females :tongue_smilie:

 

oh & if she's got some northern breed/spitz in her, she may be a bit on the feisty side. They tend to have a lot of personality. My malamute x female can be pretty full of herself sometimes; she likes to come out swinging & THEN, once that's established, then she wants to be friends. :D

 

I wish I knew exactly which breeds Lucy's x are, because she certainly doesn't exhibit any herding traits! I suspect when all of this settles out, she'll resemble your malamute's personality.

 

Thanks again! The fostering is easy; the rehabilitation is what takes the energy!

 

Beth

[hornblower]

They have done all of these things, which I have also experienced with new dog introductions, but Lucy has also snarled, snapped, lunged. Sometimes she does it without a clear reason. I have stayed close to them since Lucy arrived, and I always break up the snarling, etc. episodes. How do you feel about intervening earlier with these two since it seems to go downhill fast? BTW, all three of these dogs are spayed females :tongue_smilie:

 

Absolutely! I'd treat these guys like toddlers - you know how you cannot really take your eyes off of them :D. I'd either keep a drag line on her (6 foot leash dragging on her collar) or actually tether her to you by tying a long leash around your waist. Talk to her as you move around so it's not a surprise (or just pat your leg or make the smoochie noise) but keep her close. If she's being a cow, walk in front of her, "cutting her off" in traffic speaking terms.

 

Also, have you walked all of them together on leash? Walking on leash together is a very good pack building tool. Unless they're snarling at each other constantly, I'd put Lucy with the visiting golden that she sometimes objects to & let the walk together; put your dog on the other side. If they're snarling, keep them on opposite sides & gradually loosen leashes so that they're closer.

 

Don't worry too much at this point about keeping them in heel or even not pulling. If Lucy pulls a lot, put a non pull front clip harness on her. The point of walking together is that for dogs it's a bonding exercise to walk beside each other, sniff the same things, take turns peeing on stuff. Several outings like this can really change things around.

 

Try to find triggers. Is it doorways? hallways? closeness to you? closeness to a toy?

 

We usually have snarkiness near doors or the hallway for quite a few days when a new dog comes in.

 

cheers :001_smile:

[Beth in OH]

This has been a very reassuring conversation. First, I've been doing a bunch of "right" things. Whew! Second, you've been so helpful in giving me perspective on managing pack behavior. I was starting to think things like, "What happens if we can't turn this around? I don't think my rescue has many fosters who don't have other dogs. Who will want to adopt a badly behaved malamute x from a collie rescue? etc..." I now feel much better that there is a fair amount of normalcy to what's going on, and we'll work through it and all wind up the better for having done so.

 

I have walked everyone together, and we've also done some apart walking to give everyone a break. I had to give Lucy a time out a bit ago, and the 3 dogs have been playing happily together since then (about 20 minutes). That's a good sign, but like your toddler analogy, I'm keeping close watch since emotions can change in the blink of an eye.

 

I'll let you know how things are going later in the week. Thanks again for your help! (BTW, I took a peek at your blog. If that's your malamute x doing agility, she looks just like Lucy, except for the coloring. Not collie. Never trust the breed identification of a compassionate vet who wants to see a great dog get a better chance at adoption LOL!)

[smrtmama]

This has been a great conversation to read! We're bringing home our first dog, a rescue beagle, some time in the next week and I had never heard of handfeeding as a way of showing them that Human = Important. I hadn't come across it at all on the beagle rescue sites, but wow, that's a GREAT bit of information.

[hornblower]

smrtmama - do you know which one you're getting yet? So exciting when you're waiting for your new dog!

 

here are a couple articles which reference hand feeding. It's often used in treating shy or anxious or resource guardy dogs but I find it very helpful with all newbies b/e they tend to be a bit confused about life having usually gone through many changes. (my fosters usually were loose dogs living in native communities. Living in a house & paying attn to people is totally new to them.)

 

http://www.sdhumane.org/site/DocServer/BT_K9-First_Days_Home_w_Shy_Dog.pdf?docID=582

 

also useful for training recall - esp with a scent driven beagle!

 

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/come.html

 

Beth - yeah, the wolfie looking gal in the agility tunnel is my malamute x GSD. :)

 

 

ps. that entire site has lots of good training info: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/behavior.html