SWB's writing recommendations

[Lori in MS]

I listened to SWB writing lecture for middle grades, and felt a burden being lifted off in regards to writing. Then I read 2nd edition WTM (don't have the new one yet) and she recommended doing the same thing as in the lecture but adding in Writing Strands or IEW in addition to writing across the curriculum. Am I understanding correctly that she now says that writing across the curriculum in history, science, and literature is enough without an additional writing program?

 

I plan to have my dc do MFW's high school and was looking at some of the writing assignments for 9th grade. They assign a persuasive essay the first week. MFW also recommends Writing Strands and says that the students need to have completed WS 4 (but preferrably 5 or 6) before high school. Will my dc be prepared for this if I follow SWB's recs for middle school? I really want to as I greatly respect her opinions on writing.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Lori in MS

[Stellalarella]

I had the very same question!!

[Donna T.]

Then I read 2nd edition WTM (don't have the new one yet) and she recommended doing the same thing as in the lecture but adding in Writing Strands or IEW in addition to writing across the curriculum. Am I understanding correctly that she now says that writing across the curriculum in history, science, and literature is enough without an additional writing program?

 

 

 

I am pretty sure that her recommendation is for you to use a writing program if you are not using Rod & Staff English for your grammar and writing instruction. I believe she is saying that if you use one of the other grammar options that she has suggested that you will then need to add a writing program. So, if you are using R&S with all of the writing assignments that are included in it, then you do not need another writing program and yes, you would still write across the curriculum. Or, if you are using another option for grammar, then do add a writing program and still do the writing across the curriculum.

[swainsonshawk]

I think that she is saying that it is enough to practice writing using only narration/copywork/dictation in the early years and then learning outlining and to write from your outline in the middle school years. I don't think she recommends another writing program as "required" There you go. A different opinion. I have the WTM most recent edition.

[Amy loves Bud]

On page 359 in the third edition, she talks about how the dictations, narrations and summaries build writing skills, but that a formal writing program is necessary as well.

 

She goes on to say that Rod and Staff provides adequate writing instruction, but if you aren't using that grammar, you need to add something.

 

I'd say you need a writing program. :001_smile:

[Stellalarella]

I could just read my son's writing and evaluate it--and then if he needs more work, I could add a writing program. But if he is writing across the curriculum (history, reading, science) and writing letters as SWB recommends then I may just call it good. I got the Rod and Staff book and I think the writing assignments are a little on the dull side.

[Lori in MS]

I am pretty sure that her recommendation is for you to use a writing program if you are not using Rod & Staff English for your grammar and writing instruction. I believe she is saying that if you use one of the other grammar options that she has suggested that you will then need to add a writing program. So, if you are using R&S with all of the writing assignments that are included in it, then you do not need another writing program and yes, you would still write across the curriculum. Or, if you are using another option for grammar, then do add a writing program and still do the writing across the curriculum.

 

But I just listened to her lecture for middle grades and she said not to do the writing assignments in Rod and Staff(or any grammar program that puts grammar and writing in the same book) but to do her plan instead. She said they are unnecessarily complicated and children aren't usually interested in the topics assigned.

[Donna T.]

But I just listened to her lecture for middle grades and she said not to do the writing assignments in Rod and Staff(or any grammar program that puts grammar and writing in the same book) but to do her plan instead. She said they are unnecessarily complicated and children aren't usually interested in the topics assigned.

 

Oh, brother, that is confusing. The recommendations that I referenced are clearly stated in my copy of TWTM. I do recall listening to the lecture and I thought she said that R&S was a good choice (and there are others, too, not just R&S) because it does cover all the types of writing that she is suggesting we cover with our students. I think she was saying, "if you want to keep it simple, just follow what I've laid out, and you'll get there" but, if we need more help and structure, then using a program, such as R&S, is fine and good.

 

I keep intending to listen to the lecture again. I'm sure I missed alot of good stuff.

[angela&4boys]

But I just listened to her lecture for middle grades and she said not to do the writing assignments in Rod and Staff(or any grammar program that puts grammar and writing in the same book) but to do her plan instead. She said they are unnecessarily complicated and children aren't usually interested in the topics assigned.

 

Yup. That was my understanding too.

[Colleen in NS]

Then I read 2nd edition WTM (don't have the new one yet) and she recommended doing the same thing as in the lecture but adding in Writing Strands or IEW in addition to writing across the curriculum. Am I understanding correctly that she now says that writing across the curriculum in history, science, and literature is enough without an additional writing program?

 

I plan to have my dc do MFW's high school and was looking at some of the writing assignments for 9th grade. They assign a persuasive essay the first week. MFW also recommends Writing Strands and says that the students need to have completed WS 4 (but preferrably 5 or 6) before high school. Will my dc be prepared for this if I follow SWB's recs for middle school? I really want to as I greatly respect her opinions on writing.

 

I went to the conf. in May 2009 where these lectures were recorded. She did indeed give the impression that if we just use copywork/dictation, narration, outlining, rewriting from outlines, and the rhetoric study, that that would be a complete writing plan, if used in the other content areas. I clearly remember the question coming up during the lectures, and her saying that it's really up to the parent to decide if a writing program would be a good supplement to doing this stuff with our kids.

 

then....

 

On page 359 in the third edition, she talks about how the dictations, narrations and summaries build writing skills, but that a formal writing program is necessary as well.

 

She goes on to say that Rod and Staff provides adequate writing instruction, but if you aren't using that grammar, you need to add something.

 

I'd say you need a writing program. :001_smile:

 

...I went home and read this edition, and momentarily got confused because of what I'd just heard in this conf.. Then I realized that this edition had just come out, and I figure there are some things she felt she had to leave in the book for people just getting a taste for neoclassical education, who might never listen to any updated lectures of hers. It was probably better that the rec. for a writing program be left in there, for people who would feel more comfortable with that. Just a guess on my part. But she did say, after the 3rd edition came out, that a program isn't necessary if doing the other things.

 

About being ready for a persuasive essay the first week of high school....well, ideally, your child would be proficient in outlining to the third level, and rewriting from that, by the end of 8th grade. Not sure about the being ready the first week of high school for persuasive writing. But I think ready to *start* learning persuasive writing. The rhetoric study that SWB lays out will teach this gradually over four years. The other thing she mentioned is that it takes time to learn persuasive writing, and it doesn't need to be rushed in high school - high school is a time to practice, after having gained the logic stage skills. Just like 1st graders don't need to be able to think up and write down an entire paragraph by themselves yet.

 

hth

[Lori in MS]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I do remember her saying if your child wanted to do more writing (or you wanted them to) that was fine, but her plan mentioned in the lectures was perfectly fine as a minimum and would get the job done.

 

I have WS and IEW on my shelf so I may insert some extra work eventually but plan to try it her way first.

[Colleen in NS]

I may insert some extra work

 

I do this with R&S sometimes. Some of their writing lessons I go over very lightly (like the creative writing ones - stories, poems, character sketches, etc.), but others we pay a little more attention to, like topic sentences in paragraphs, and anything that would enhance the narrations and outlines and rewrites. In other words, I lightly use some of R&S writing lessons to support the narrations and outlines. But if I had to drop the R&S writing lessons because of time, I'd have no problem doing so. I just glean what seems useful from them at the time.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[TC5]

After having listened to SWB's lectures and read the WTM 3rd edition, my interpretation from the mp3 was that no other writing program was needed and that we should even skip the R&S writing portions.

 

Still, this is my tentative plan for my 9yo son who will be in 5th grade next month. We may make adjustments, but here's our starting point:

 

M: dictation, letter (2/month); Tu: dictation; W: literary essay; Th: science report; F: history report.

Daily: Rod and Staff grammar (orally), which has 10 units, skipping most or all of the writing lessons (with tests, this leaves 101 lessons). He will still read the writing lessons for an overview of the concept.

Between each unit, my son will do one Writing Strands lesson (he has 10 lessons remaining in WS3, which we attempted at the beginning of 3rd grade, for a recommended total of 56 days). In the weeks that he does Writing Strands, I will ease up on the other writing requirements and will try to use WS across the curriculum when possible.

 

My son is a strong writer (though he'd rather not put pencil to paper) and has requested more writing instruction. I also have an editing/writing background, so I feel confident teaching him -- with the guidance of curricula! I am going to closely monitor his attitude this year, though, as I don't want to kill his love for writing. Also, I just now realized that if I try out all these methods at once, I'll have a better idea of which ONE small part will work for my second son when he's older. I don't expect him to be able to do nearly this much.

 

I'd love to hear how others are implementing SWB's writing recommendations.

[Capt_Uhura]

At this very moment (well, up until the point I picked up the computer), reading WTM2009 writing for logic stage. I too have a rising 5th grade boy. We have been doing WWE. He's finishing up WWE3 this summer and will go right into WWE4 in the fall. I"m currently mapping out our history and most of his writing will be in this area. He enjoys history and I think/hope this will make writing less painful. He's a good writer but hates to put pen to paper....and then on some days he'll crank out two pages single spaced on something he's working on. I'm really hoping to transition him to typing this year.

 

After reading WTM, I will re-listen to SWB's middle grades writing MP3 and then write up a tentative plan.

[Amy loves Bud]

Just listened to her presentation. She says a writing program woudl be overkill if you follow her other recs for logic stage writing.

 

Which makes me very, very happy. :D

 

I retract my previous statement.

[Lori in MS]

 

 

About being ready for a persuasive essay the first week of high school....well, ideally, your child would be proficient in outlining to the third level, and rewriting from that, by the end of 8th grade. Not sure about the being ready the first week of high school for persuasive writing. But I think ready to *start* learning persuasive writing. The rhetoric study that SWB lays out will teach this gradually over four years. The other thing she mentioned is that it takes time to learn persuasive writing, and it doesn't need to be rushed in high school - high school is a time to practice, after having gained the logic stage skills. Just like 1st graders don't need to be able to think up and write down an entire paragraph by themselves yet.

 

hth

 

I think my ds will be practicing persuasive writing on that 1st assignment. I will have a chance to look at the high school program in depth in a few weeks so I will have a better understanding of what is expected.