Duke's Response to Clan of the Cave Bear

[choirfarm]

Good morning, Mrs. Langford,

A colleague of mine here at Duke TIP forwarded your comment to me for a response. I apologize for the delay, having been away for a family vacation and returning to a non-functional computer. I would have like to respond to your message sooner, had I been able to. Your question was:

Question - I was reading your book list. I agreed with the Civil War suggestions. My son LOVES the Jeff Shara books!!! But I was absolutely ;appalled at your suggestion of Clan of the Cave Bear. That book is sexually explicit and not appropriate for a person going into 8th grade!!!!!! I cannot believe you suggested that book for a 13 year old. Oh my. I was considering having my son take classes, but if this is the kind of material you suggest, I am having serious reservations!!

 

Christine Langford

I appreciate your feedback regarding your perception of the inclusion of the novel Clan of the Cave Bear on our list of books for TIP-sters. As a parent, you know your son best. You know his developmental readiness for topics that are of concern to you as a parent. There are a couple of thoughts I would like to share in response to your concern.

The identification of material that is appropriately challenging for gifted students who are in early adolescence is especially tricky, in that the reading comprehension ability of the students makes most of the “grade/age level†selections wholly inappropriate for them – the books are too easy and simplistic. Because these students are able to read and comprehend works that are significantly above their grade level, the substantial challenge becomes one of finding appropriately challenging works that aren’t rendered completely unacceptable due to inappropriate content or subject matter – or even a by a single specific scene. We want TIP-sters to be reading higher level material, which sometimes puts them in the position of encountering elements of the work that they may not be ready for, or the parent may not be ready to have their child deal with. The more gifted the child, the more difficult this becomes, as the discrepancy widens in highly gifted students between their chronological age and their comprehension skills along with the maturity and sophistication of the theme of the work. The TIP list includes recommendations that have been used in classrooms by teachers of the gifted in upper middle and early high school that have a substantive value in the concepts and themes of the works, even though there inevitably may be content that can – for some children – be unsettling.

Regarding the children themselves, there is tremendous variation in the knowledge, awareness and sophistication among the students served by TIP, and that is something that we try to take into account as we offer suggestions and generate such a list. We have children from very urban to very rural environments, from quite well-to-do to not-very-well-off economic circumstances, from schools with vigorous gifted programming to schools with none whatsoever to homeschooling, and from households with strong, orthodox religious convictions to those for whom religion is not a part of their life. With so many variations, we would be the first to agree that not every book on the list is for every single TIP-ster. It is up to the parents to be aware of their priorities and mores and to guide the child in the selection of works that are deemed appropriate for that child at that level of development.

Regarding the specific elements that may be unsettling, there is tremendous variation among the topics that are of concern by parents. For some, it may be the concern about exposure to human sexuality at too early an age for the parent to be comfortable. For some parents, it is violence – as, for example, with a marvelous award-winning science fiction work about a gifted youngster titled Ender’s Game, which some object to because of a particularly disturbing scene involving a brutal assault on the main character who is isolated and victimized by his peers precisely because of his giftedness. Although many gifted students know what it’s like to be ostracized, even bullied and/or assaulted, there are parents who object to the violence in this book. Similarly, there are parents who have profound objections to the portrayal of magic, sorcery or witchcraft in books of fantasy fiction because such portrayals represent or even glorify those ideas – even in works that clearly are fictional. Whatever the source of concern, we would never attempt to persuade the parent that they are wrong about their objections or concerns. We would just encourage them to recognize that there are many who do not share that same level of concern with regard to their own children, and perceive that the worth/value of the experience of reading the work far outweighs the concern about the child’s readiness for the advanced content. In fact, for many, it becomes a way to introduce distressing ideas (such as what is learned about the holocaust through reading Diary of a Young Girl by Ann Frank) and use the book/selection/work as a springboard for discussing ideas and feelings about them.

I hope you won’t condemn the entire TIP curriculum, whether e-Studies, Independent Learning or Summer Studies Programs, on the basis of a single selection among many on a list. After thirty years, and two million participants in TIP, we believe that we have a sound understanding of the developmental readiness that most of the TIP-sters have reached, and the selections we include in our courses/programs reflect a wide range of skill, maturity, interests and sophistication on the part of our participants. We have eighth grade students who are engaged in college level coursework and materials because they are ready for it. And we, in turn, would support you in your decision-making as a parent regarding any reservations you may have regarding specifically what you believe is or is not appropriate for your child. In almost any situation, there can be an alternative provided in the course of study that can address a need for a different selection due to concerns about a particular student’s current developmental level of maturation and sophistication. After all, recognizing individual differences and providing instructional alternatives to address them is at the very core of TIP’s values and mission.

With sincere best wishes,

Rick Courtright

[choirfarm]

I guess to me, there is a HUGE difference between the Diary of Anne Frank and Clan of the Cave Bear. AS I said, I read this without my parents' knowledge in high school and I remember it being very, very explicit but maybe I was naive and it wasn't as explicit as I remember. My parents owned the book and I snuck it out and read it. I seem to remember a rape as well???

 

Christine

[Dana]

Thanks for posting the response. I think it's a good one.

 

I read Clan when it came out (I was probably in 6th or 7th grade). The rape scene was violent but in my memory at the time, it wasn't too extreme.

Valley of the Horses was much worse in terms of sexual issues. I've read romance novels with less explicit sex. :lol: I read that in 7th grade as well.

[kiana]

Thanks for posting the response. I think it's a good one.

 

I read Clan when it came out (I was probably in 6th or 7th grade). The rape scene was violent but in my memory at the time, it wasn't too extreme.

Valley of the Horses was much worse in terms of sexual issues. I've read romance novels with less explicit sex. :lol: I read that in 7th grade as well.

 

And then there's always the Plains of Passion ... errr ... passage.

 

I don't remember the original book being that bad as far as gratuitous sex goes, but the sequels -- oh my.

[WishboneDawn]

I thought the response was a good one as well.

[Charles Wallace]

Unless I'm mistaken -- and forgive me, I have not read all the responses -- the parents have the right to choose the material their children read, yes?

 

I appreciate the depth and quality of the Duke person's response.

 

One possible solution here: There is much in C ot CB that is of great value. The scenes with sexuality are relatively few. Could you simply request your child not read them, put a paper clip over the pages, or otherwise convey the message that the material there is not appropriate? I think it is sufficient for a young person to know that Ayla was assaulted by Broud without giving the details.

[Charles Wallace]

Thanks for posting the response. I think it's a good one.

 

I read Clan when it came out (I was probably in 6th or 7th grade). The rape scene was violent but in my memory at the time, it wasn't too extreme.

Valley of the Horses was much worse in terms of sexual issues. I've read romance novels with less explicit sex. :lol: I read that in 7th grade as well.

 

Yes -- this is a bit OT, but I was very, very disappointed with the series when it turned from its original scope and ideas to bodice-ripping Love Amongst the Early Humans. Seriously...I just did not care about the dimensions or capabilities of other people's parts, nor did I want to read about them *every ten pages.* </rant>

[FloridaLisa]

The identification of material that is appropriately challenging for gifted students who are in early adolescence is especially tricky, in that the reading comprehension ability of the students makes most of the “grade/age level†selections wholly inappropriate for them – the books are too easy and simplistic.

 

Only if you're looking at the shelves of Barnes and Noble. There are countless classics and beloved books that challenge the reading ability while being age appropriate. When I look at the inscriptions in our books showing what my father (and grandfather) read at a young age, I'm really amazed at how dumbed down our reading level is.

 

The TIP list includes recommendations that have been used in classrooms by teachers of the gifted in upper middle and early high school that have a substantive value in the concepts and themes of the works, even though there inevitably may be content that can – for some children – be unsettling.

 

Just because it's on school lists doesn't make it appropriate. The school lists I've researched do have some good books, but, again, tend to group around the Barnes and Noble book table, and ignore sooooo many excellent works.

 

And, am I the only one that doesn't recall Clan of the Cave Bear as particularly challenging in reading level? :tongue_smilie: Or content? :001_huh: Or theme? ;) At least the Shaara novel dissects a battle hugely important to American history from the differing perspectives of North and South generals.

 

Lisa

[JFSinIL]

And then there's always the Plains of Passion ... errr ... passage.

 

I don't remember the original book being that bad as far as gratuitous sex goes, but the sequels -- oh my.

 

I agree. I enjoy this series, but tend to skim quickly over the , er, "passionate" parts.

[Charles Wallace]

Only if you're looking at the shelves of Barnes and Noble. There are countless classics and beloved books that challenge the reading ability while being age appropriate. When I look at the inscriptions in our books showing what my father (and grandfather) read at a young age, I'm really amazed at how dumbed down our reading level is.

 

 

But here's a question worth asking: Could those classic books be on the Duke list also? I honestly don't know -- I haven't seen it -- but I know that when I'm planning an independent reading list for my classes, I do include works that are classics, but also some which contain adult topics and themes (and which are clearly identified as such). There are many outstanding, challenging novels which are worthy of inclusion on a good reading list. The classics absolutely deserve a place for the reasons you're suggesting, but others do also.

 

Just another thought, too -- many gifted readers have done precisely what you're suggesting and have read many of the classic novels, at least those I think of as "A-side" classic novels (e.g., Pride and Prejudice). One obvious argument is, "Well, read the 'B-side!' You've read P & P? Try Love and Freindship" (the spelling is Austen's, not mine). The problem is that some topics (cave people being one!) are just not dealt with in older novels because so little was known about them, KWIM?

 

 

And, am I the only one that doesn't recall Clan of the Cave Bear as particularly challenging in reading level? :tongue_smilie: Or content? :001_huh: Or theme? ;) At least the Shaara novel dissects a battle hugely important to American history from the differing perspectives of North and South generals.

 

Lisa

 

I can't speak for others, but I found it a fascinating book when I first read it, because it taught me -- better than subsequent anthropology classes -- what life was like for the Neanderthal and how their lives, their thought processes, their technology, their understanding of the environment, shaped them as humans, and how they differed from our direct ancestors. I'm one of those folks who learns history best through historical novels -- through the vicarious experiences of the characters -- and found it very compelling.

 

Note: I'm talking ONLY about Clan of the Cave Bear. The other books? Really poor.

[Charles Wallace]

I agree. I enjoy this series, but tend to skim quickly over the , er, "passionate" parts.

 

Yeah, but that quickly whittles down a 500-page book to what...42 pages?:D I can see the abridged version now:

 

Ayla meets Jondalar.

 

The end.

[Supertechmom]

Y bodice-ripping Love Amongst the Early Humans. </rant>

 

 

:rofl::smilielol5: That's too funny!

[WishboneDawn]

I can't speak for others, but I found it a fascinating book when I first read it, because it taught me -- better than subsequent anthropology classes -- what life was like for the Neanderthal and how their lives, their thought processes, their technology, their understanding of the environment, shaped them as humans, and how they differed from our direct ancestors. I'm one of those folks who learns history best through historical novels -- through the vicarious experiences of the characters -- and found it very compelling.

 

Note: I'm talking ONLY about Clan of the Cave Bear. The other books? Really poor.

 

Ditto. Clan of the Cave Bear is why I also own a book on flint knapping. It sparked a lifelong interest in all things Neanderthal.

 

Clan of the Cave Bear has huge cultural significance. Perhaps what makes it great isn't what makes Balzac or Austen great but it's important nonetheless.

[tex-mex]

Thanks for posting the response. I think it's a good one.

 

I read Clan when it came out (I was probably in 6th or 7th grade). The rape scene was violent but in my memory at the time, it wasn't too extreme.

Valley of the Horses was much worse in terms of sexual issues. I've read romance novels with less explicit sex. :lol: I read that in 7th grade as well.

He did an excellent job covering all bases. Every child is different. I like that it is up to the parent to make the decision.

 

Couldn't read the Clan of the Cave Bear beyond the first chapter. (I really tried.) But I did read Aztec back in junior high -- and OH MY word -- that book was full of inappropriate sex and violence. But my mom had no clue as I read it on my own... summer vacation a la the public library. ;) I was a voracious reader (5th grade -- I read Jaws at the age of 10 -- it scared me to death. Another public library book. Never saw the movie.) and read so much garbage. Anyone remember Flowers in the Attic? :blink: Eeeek. I should have read classic lit.

[Charles Wallace]

Anyone remember Flowers in the Attic? :blink: Eeeek. I should have read classic lit.

 

No. I do not remember it at all. NOT AT ALL. NOOOOO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I read it about fifty times in junior high.

[Elinor Everywhere]

No. I do not remember it at all. NOT AT ALL. NOOOOO.

 

 

I think I read it about fifty times in junior high.

 

:lol::lol::lol: