Question re Saxon math, also need comparison of Saxon to CLE math.

[smilesonly]

Currently we are using CLE. For other dc, I have used MUS, Miquon, Singapore, and Life of Fred. I have always avoided Saxon for no good reason other than that I had heard it was dry. (Also, when I first started hsing, I was a tad bit set on going against the crowd.:glare:)

 

Now I am actually looking at Saxon for the first time.

 

This will be for a math challenged 3rd grade boy. Currently he is using CLE 1. He is almost finished with it, and his lowest quiz or test score has been no lower than 88. However, he cannot whip off his addition/subtraction facts to even 10 many days.

 

Last night I looked at the placement test for Saxon K-3. W/o actually having him do it, I can guess that he will place closely into level 3. So, my question is about how much review is part of each new level? Also, if there is plenty of review,is there teaching along with the review? I am concerned about two things. The first being the language used to convey addition and subtraction-some, some more and some, some less(?). Also, in CLE he hasn't learned the quarter in money yet as they teach the dollar coin first. Make sense?:)

 

I am considering switching, as I am tired of curriculum shopping and feel that no matter what I choose, he will not like it and have a hard time with it. Also, I am not a math person, and even at these low levels I feel I sometimes confuse my dc-so a well written, scripted TM is now looking quite nice.

 

Thanks for any .02.

[thowell]

I can not tell you anything about Saxon but, if your son is scoring at least 88% on his test in CLE why would you want to switch him? Dd6 is finishing up CLE1 and she has done great but still does not know all of her add/sub. facts by heart. We do the flashcards, drills and added games and while she has learned some of them it is still a work in progress. I think that is okay. I have been told that some children will take much longer to memorize facts no matter what you do. So before you switch again just think about it. If it is working maybe you would be better to stick with what your using.

[smilesonly]

I can not tell you anything about Saxon but, if your son is scoring at least 88% on his test in CLE why would you want to switch him? Dd6 is finishing up CLE1 and she has done great but still does not know all of her add/sub. facts by heart. We do the flashcards, drills and added games and while she has learned some of them it is still a work in progress. I think that is okay. I have been told that some children will take much longer to memorize facts no matter what you do. So before you switch again just think about it. If it is working maybe you would be better to stick with what your using.

 

Yes, I can see what you're saying. He does score well! However, there have been more than a few times when I have felt like the explanations of how/what to do have required me to explain further so that ds understands. This bothers me. In all the reviews I have read re Saxon, never have I come across one that states the explanations are lacking. Since I am wanting to stop hopping and stick with just one "core" math until ds can take classes at our co-op, I am concerned that the explanations will lack to a greater degree if the subject matter is more difficult. I want to put him in a curriculum that will carry him the whole way, and one that won't require me to "add in" my lame attempt to explain something seemingly simple.;)

Edited June 18, 2010 by smilesonly
quotation marks were missing...

[JudoMom]

Currently we are using CLE. For other dc, I have used MUS, Miquon, Singapore, and Life of Fred. I have always avoided Saxon for no good reason other than that I had heard it was dry. (Also, when I first started hsing, I was a tad bit set on going against the crowd.:glare:)

 

Now I am actually looking at Saxon for the first time.

 

This will be for a math challenged 3rd grade boy. Currently he is using CLE 1. He is almost finished with it, and his lowest quiz or test score has been no lower than 88. However, he cannot whip off his addition/subtraction facts to even 10 many days.

 

Last night I looked at the placement test for Saxon K-3. W/o actually having him do it, I can guess that he will place closely into level 3. So, my question is about how much review is part of each new level? Also, if there is plenty of review,is there teaching along with the review? I am concerned about two things. The first being the language used to convey addition and subtraction-some, some more and some, some less(?). Also, in CLE he hasn't learned the quarter in money yet as they teach the dollar coin first. Make sense?:)

 

I am considering switching, as I am tired of curriculum shopping and feel that no matter what I choose, he will not like it and have a hard time with it. Also, I am not a math person, and even at these low levels I feel I sometimes confuse my dc-so a well written, scripted TM is now looking quite nice.

 

Thanks for any .02.

 

I think you guys will be fine going into 3. Here is the Table of Contents for 3, and there is a scripted lesson for each lesson title. There is nothing that should throw either of you guys for a loop :001_smile:.

[momtofive]

I have used Saxon for first grade and found it to be a very good math program, however, a VERY time consuming one at that. To the point that it was burning out our then first grader.

 

I switched him over to Abeka and that was a lot better for us. (Although I did miss the thorough explanations that the Saxon program had.) That worked fine for a few years. I always wanted to switch back to Saxon because I loved their program, and in fourth grade they switch gears. (Not scripted or so time-consuming.)

 

The program is a well explained lesson (written to the student) and then practice problems and then the lesson problems. Really a very good program that was easily managed at this age.

 

That little first grader is now going to be a fifth grader next year. He has mastered his Saxon 5/4 from last year (fourth grade) and is looking forward to Saxon 6/5 for next year (fifth grade). They also offer DIVE cd's for teaching instruction for fourth grade and up!

 

I am actually making a switch for my younger children to CLE math and really like the layout. They will do CLE math for first through third grades and then move on to Saxon for fourth grade and up. I feel this is a good plan for my situation, however if it's the comprehension you need, maybe Saxon for K-3 would be a good way for you to go. They have a scripted teachers manual and they do a lot of review. Although it was very time consuming, I felt as though my child had a good strong foundation in math that year. Sometimes we do need to take the extra time to make sure they are "getting it" and that will make the years to come a lot easier!!:001_smile:

 

Good luck in your decision! I hope I've helped a little, even through my rambling! :001_smile::001_smile:

~momtofive

[Ellie]

I can not tell you anything about Saxon but, if your son is scoring at least 88% on his test in CLE why would you want to switch him?

But that would be 88% on material that is one to two grade levels lower than where he "should" be. It would concern me, too.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I haven't used CLE so I can't compare it to Saxon. I used Saxon 6/5 and my kids classified it as torture. I found the explanations to be lacking. It would give the student a incomplete bits, move it into review and move onto another incomplete bit. Trying to learn some new bit while trying to learn the other bits that had been moved to review practically killed my oldest. He went from hating math (after 5 years of Horizons) to intensely and passionately hating math (after 3 quarters of Saxon). We could have dealt with dry but the incremental/spiral method was torture for my children and the only thing they learned that year was to hate math more. When I went to a curriculum sharing day with my ISP this time last year my oldest (who hadn't done Saxon in over 3 years said completely out of the blue, "Tell them if they love their children they won't use Saxon." Yeah, he hated it that much:lol::lol:

[Robin in DFW]

what do you use for math...I'm looking...and why do you like what you use?

 

My ds12 and is in BCM, but having a tough time with the adult nature of the application problems. We are considering moving back to Saxon, but your comments reminded me why switched in the first place...

 

hmmm...

[coffeegal]

This will be for a math challenged 3rd grade boy. Currently he is using CLE 1. He is almost finished with it, and his lowest quiz or test score has been no lower than 88. However, he cannot whip off his addition/subtraction facts to even 10 many days.

 

Last night I looked at the placement test for Saxon K-3. W/o actually having him do it, I can guess that he will place closely into level 3. So, my question is about how much review is part of each new level? Also, if there is plenty of review,is there teaching along with the review? I am concerned about two things. The first being the language used to convey addition and subtraction-some, some more and some, some less(?). Also, in CLE he hasn't learned the quarter in money yet as they teach the dollar coin first. Make sense?:)

 

 

Thanks for any .02.

 

Saxon 3 quickly review addition facts, the language used in wordproblems (some, some more & some, some went away), dimes and nickels, reading thermometer to nearest 10, some subtraction facts, regrouping dimes & pennies (10 pennies for 1 dime, etc - intro to borrowing and carrying but you're not there yet), counting quarters isn't until lesson 39. Saxon 3 will teach borrowing, carrying, multiplication facts, reading numbers to 99,999.99, and division facts.

 

The lesson is where the new concept is taught. The meeting reviews calendars, number sentences, temperature, counting by..., patterns, clocks, coins, and a word problem of the day. If you need to slow Saxon 3 down for more practice, you can always do the lesson + worksheet side A on the first day, and the meeting + side B on the second day.

 

Also, there's no reason to worry about using Saxon a year behind if your son tests into Saxon 2. The books are labeled 54, 65, etc because kids don't develop at the same rate. ;) 54 is appropriate for 4th graders, and 5th graders. I have 2 using Saxon on grade level, 1 using Saxon a year behind, and 1 using Saxon a grade ahead.

 

I just reread your post. Based on hard experience (BTDT) with a child struggling to learn their facts, if you switch to Saxon go with Saxon 2. A child who is still struggling learning addition and subtraction facts will struggle even harder learning multiplication and division facts. While Saxon 3 reviews addition and subtraction, the real emphasis is on learning multiplication and division. There is nothing more frustrating than to jump to a new curriculum only to end up struggling again. Using Saxon 2 in 3rd grade, Saxon 3 in 4th, you'll be doing Saxon 54 in 5th, 65 in 6th, 76 in 7th, and 87 in 8th. If the foundation has been laid well, he'll likely be ready to move into Algebra in 9th. Algebra 2 in 10th, Adv. math in 11th. :grouphug:

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

what do you use for math...I'm looking...and why do you like what you use?

 

My ds12 and is in BCM, but having a tough time with the adult nature of the application problems. We are considering moving back to Saxon, but your comments reminded me why switched in the first place...

 

hmmm...

 

I switched them to MUS, starting them in Alpha because they didn't have a solid foundation in math (my oldest was still counting on his fingers to add and while his younger brother got straight A's he didn't have any idea what he was doing because he'd just memorized what to do). They moved through the early levels pretty quickly because they were older and are now working at or above grade level. I am very happy with MUS and plan on using it through high school. This year I added LoF (a bit behind MUS so MUS introduces everything) for fun (yes, fun) and more real life application.

 

We have a big gap in the ages of our kids (2, 3 1/2, 6, 14 and 16) so I'm just starting with our younger bunch. I planned on using MOTL (Math on the Level) with my 6 yodd (using my MUS DVD's and blocks with it) but she LOVES workbooks (she'll do all 6 pages of an MUS lesson in one day if I let her, and then ask for more) and would die if I tried to only have her do 5 problems/day:001_huh: I don't know where I went wrong;):lol: So, I ended up using MUS as my main program then adding MOTL for more living math and Math Mammoth for more worksheets (I use the Blue Series because they have instructions and are organized by topic instead of grade level so it's easy to add to MUS). I really like all 3 and do think it's beneficial to see different approaches. I'll likely use all 3 with the younger ones but how I do so will depend on how they like to learn. I will use MUS for instruction even if it's not our main curriculum because I love the way it teaches.

 

I hope that's helpful and not more confusing!

[fractalgal]

 

Last night I looked at the placement test for Saxon K-3. W/o actually having him do it, I can guess that he will place closely into level 3. So, my question is about how much review is part of each new level? Also, if there is plenty of review,is there teaching along with the review? I am concerned about two things. The first being the language used to convey addition and subtraction-some, some more and some, some less(?). Also, in CLE he hasn't learned the quarter in money yet as they teach the dollar coin first. Make sense?:)

 

Thanks for any .02.

 

I would have your son take the placement test to be sure.

 

We liked the 1-3 levels of Saxon. I thought the explanations were good. For example, Lesson 134 of Saxon 3 does a good job of explaining long division and is a very good starting point to introduce it (before any algorithms are introduced).

 

The lessons did sometimes take a long time in Saxon 3, so I did eliminate parts of the meeting book often once I knew he understood the concepts.

 

If the language used to convey addition or subtraction is something you find odd in Saxon, you could use your own words or borrow an idea from another curricula you have used. I have always adapted any of the curricula I have used to put it in words I better understand in the hopes that my children will understand the concept.

 

My daughter didn't like Saxon 7/6 but I placed her into a level below where she tested so that may have very well been my own fault, not the Saxon curriculum.

 

If you are seriously thinking about using Saxon for the long term, you may want to get Art Reed's book which contains useful tips.

 

Saxon's pedagogy is unique. It distributes incremental instruction of a concept throughout the lessons. Here is a link to learn more about research done on Saxon:

 

Saxon Link

 

Good luck. :)

[thowell]

But that would be 88% on material that is one to two grade levels lower than where he "should" be. It would concern me, too.

 

:iagree: I somehow missed that. This is what happens when you have taken way to much allergy meds!!

[smilesonly]

I have used Saxon for first grade and found it to be a very good math program, however, a VERY time consuming one at that. To the point that it was burning out our then first grader.

 

I switched him over to Abeka and that was a lot better for us. (Although I did miss the thorough explanations that the Saxon program had.) That worked fine for a few years. I always wanted to switch back to Saxon because I loved their program, and in fourth grade they switch gears. (Not scripted or so time-consuming.)

 

The program is a well explained lesson (written to the student) and then practice problems and then the lesson problems. Really a very good program that was easily managed at this age.

 

That little first grader is now going to be a fifth grader next year. He has mastered his Saxon 5/4 from last year (fourth grade) and is looking forward to Saxon 6/5 for next year (fifth grade). They also offer DIVE cd's for teaching instruction for fourth grade and up!

 

I am actually making a switch for my younger children to CLE math and really like the layout. They will do CLE math for first through third grades and then move on to Saxon for fourth grade and up. I feel this is a good plan for my situation, however if it's the comprehension you need, maybe Saxon for K-3 would be a good way for you to go. They have a scripted teachers manual and they do a lot of review. Although it was very time consuming, I felt as though my child had a good strong foundation in math that year. Sometimes we do need to take the extra time to make sure they are "getting it" and that will make the years to come a lot easier!

 

Good luck in your decision! I hope I've helped a little, even through my rambling!

~momtofive

 

Thanks, it definitely gives me perspective. I also like the layout of CLE, it's just the explanations-or lack there of-that I'm not liking. However, I haven't ever seen a Saxon page, so can't compare them.

 

I haven't used CLE so I can't compare it to Saxon. I used Saxon 6/5 and my kids classified it as torture. I found the explanations to be lacking. It would give the student a incomplete bits, move it into review and move onto another incomplete bit. Trying to learn some new bit while trying to learn the other bits that had been moved to review practically killed my oldest. He went from hating math (after 5 years of Horizons) to intensely and passionately hating math (after 3 quarters of Saxon). We could have dealt with dry but the incremental/spiral method was torture for my children and the only thing they learned that year was to hate math more. When I went to a curriculum sharing day with my ISP this time last year my oldest (who hadn't done Saxon in over 3 years said completely out of the blue, "Tell them if they love their children they won't use Saxon." Yeah, he hated it that much

 

This is what I fear-but it seems that no matter what I use, his reaction is the same.

 

Saxon 3 quickly review addition facts, the language used in wordproblems (some, some more & some, some went away), dimes and nickels, reading thermometer to nearest 10, some subtraction facts, regrouping dimes & pennies (10 pennies for 1 dime, etc - intro to borrowing and carrying but you're not there yet), counting quarters isn't until lesson 39. Saxon 3 will teach borrowing, carrying, multiplication facts, reading numbers to 99,999.99, and division facts.

 

The lesson is where the new concept is taught. The meeting reviews calendars, number sentences, temperature, counting by..., patterns, clocks, coins, and a word problem of the day. If you need to slow Saxon 3 down for more practice, you can always do the lesson + worksheet side A on the first day, and the meeting + side B on the second day.

 

Also, there's no reason to worry about using Saxon a year behind if your son tests into Saxon 2. The books are labeled 54, 65, etc because kids don't develop at the same rate. ;) 54 is appropriate for 4th graders, and 5th graders. I have 2 using Saxon on grade level, 1 using Saxon a year behind, and 1 using Saxon a grade ahead.

 

I just reread your post. Based on hard experience (BTDT) with a child struggling to learn their facts, if you switch to Saxon go with Saxon 2. A child who is still struggling learning addition and subtraction facts will struggle even harder learning multiplication and division facts. While Saxon 3 reviews addition and subtraction, the real emphasis is on learning multiplication and division. There is nothing more frustrating than to jump to a new curriculum only to end up struggling again. Using Saxon 2 in 3rd grade, Saxon 3 in 4th, you'll be doing Saxon 54 in 5th, 65 in 6th, 76 in 7th, and 87 in 8th. If the foundation has been laid well, he'll likely be ready to move into Algebra in 9th. Algebra 2 in 10th, Adv. math in 11th. :grouphug:

 

Thanks for all the info! I did have him do the placement test this afternoon, and he placed at level 3. The thing is, is he sometimes whips out his facts, just not every time.:confused:

 

I switched them to MUS, starting them in Alpha because they didn't have a solid foundation in math (my oldest was still counting on his fingers to add and while his younger brother got straight A's he didn't have any idea what he was doing because he'd just memorized what to do). They moved through the early levels pretty quickly because they were older and are now working at or above grade level. I am very happy with MUS and plan on using it through high school. This year I added LoF (a bit behind MUS so MUS introduces everything) for fun (yes, fun) and more real life application.

 

We have a big gap in the ages of our kids (2, 3 1/2, 6, 14 and 16) so I'm just starting with our younger bunch. I planned on using MOTL (Math on the Level) with my 6 yodd (using my MUS DVD's and blocks with it) but she LOVES workbooks (she'll do all 6 pages of an MUS lesson in one day if I let her, and then ask for more) and would die if I tried to only have her do 5 problems/day:001_huh: I don't know where I went wrong So, I ended up using MUS as my main program then adding MOTL for more living math and Math Mammoth for more worksheets (I use the Blue Series because they have instructions and are organized by topic instead of grade level so it's easy to add to MUS). I really like all 3 and do think it's beneficial to see different approaches. I'll likely use all 3 with the younger ones but how I do so will depend on how they like to learn. I will use MUS for instruction even if it's not our main curriculum because I love the way it teaches.

 

I hope that's helpful and not more confusing!

 

See, this is why it is so hard to figure things out! :D My ds *hated* MUS! I showed him MM today and he said no way!

 

Like I said above, I really feel he won't like anything, and I need to just find something that helps me explain even the simplest concepts to him to lessen the confusion and frustration. *sigh*

 

I would have your son take the placement test to be sure.

I had him take it today and he placed in level 3.

 

 

We liked the 1-3 levels of Saxon. I thought the explanations were good. For example, Lesson 134 of Saxon 3 does a good job of explaining long division and is a very good starting point to introduce it (before any algorithms are introduced).

 

The lessons did sometimes take a long time in Saxon 3, so I did eliminate parts of the meeting book often once I knew he understood the concepts.

 

If the language used to convey addition or subtraction is something you find odd in Saxon, you could use your own words or borrow an idea from another curricula you have used. I have always adapted any of the curricula I have used to put it in words I better understand in the hopes that my children will understand the concept.

I actually like the way Saxon explains the adding and subtracting concepts! It makes sense to me. With CLE, it is explained as joining two groups. Ds gets this, but I think it has to do more with his age-he is obviously on the older side for this level.

My daughter didn't like Saxon 7/6 but I placed her into a level below where she tested so that may have very well been my own fault, not the Saxon curriculum.

 

If you are seriously thinking about using Saxon for the long term, you may want to get Art Reed's book which contains useful tips.

 

Saxon's pedagogy is unique. It distributes incremental instruction of a concept throughout the lessons. Here is a link to learn more about research done on Saxon:

 

Saxon Link

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks for the info!

[FourSweetBoys]

I don't have any comparisons but wanted to say I can totally relate. I never considered Saxon but I am just terrible at explaining math. I love math and understand it but just can't teach it. :blush:

[smilesonly]

Bumping for more traffic....

:D

[smilesonly]

Oops, not sure what happened, but I was trying to include everyone's reply so each could read my update....didn't mean to single the two of you out!

 

 

 

 

 

 

But that would be 88% on material that is one to two grade levels lower than where he "should" be. It would concern me, too.

 

He was doing CLE grade 1 for his 2nd grade year, and when I just went back over all of his quizzes and tests, he never scored below 95% on a *test*.I was psyched to see that he scored in the upper 80's on only two quizzes. :D See below for my update....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay! I had a chance to see Saxon 3 and 5/4 this weekend! I can definitely say....

 

~ that CLE grade 1 is almost even with Saxon 3. Almost.

~ Saxon is so!! scripted, that it was....shocking. I may need help, but I'm not sure I need that much help!:D

~ The way adding is explained in 5/4 is exactly the way it is explained in CLE.

~ I'm not sure that the explanations are anymore clearer in Saxon! Most of the explanations are almost identical, with CLE even being a little more direct. This surprised me!

~The meeting book work drove me crazy!! The constant "If *this* happened 3 months ago, what month is that?" type of questions are overkill. My dd never had anything close to Saxon in her early grade school years, and when she entered PS for a short time, she scored almost 100% on all math questions. So, I have to wonder how important is it to know how many months away something is??:confused:

~I think the extreme amount of explaining would be just too much for my visual guy. I think.

~I am for certain that the crammed pages in 5/4 would put ds over the edge. Like someone else said, the layout in CLE is really nice-it seems like a lot since each lesson is 2-3 pages, but I am certain my ds would prefer that to the crammed problems in 5/4.

~I think I am appreciating CLE. I've never been to a hs conference, and only recently joined a hs group-so my only glance at curricula has been online samples and descriptions. It was nice to see these side by side.

~ I also (finally!) looked at our local PS's math objectives for 2nd grade, and ds has already met those, AND, he only has two more light units left of grade 1. Yippee(or, sad for the PS....)

~On Friday, ds did 2 lessons of his CLE, and whipped out addition facts to 13-and they weren't even on the lesson-he just took the lesson a step further.:D

~Finally, when ds saw that I was looking at Saxon, he said he didn't want to change math again. So, I think for now we will stick with CLE.;)

 

I'm sure I'm leaving something out that i wanted to add, but I just wanted to post my little update.:)

Edited June 28, 2010 by smilesonly
To add the first sentence...