5th grade math nightmare

[Tidbits of Learning]

Well, this has been our first home school year and my 4th grade dd's math has been a never ending nightmare. We tried 1. Scott Foresman Exploring Mathematics 2. Singapore 3. R&S Math and 4. Seton Mathematics...

She did poorly on the math computation part of the CAT and we are finishing Seton Mathematics over the summer. With Scott Foresman Exploring Math 4, I realized that she hadn't really learned 3rd grade math in public school b/c they stopped in December to test prep. for the state test. So we tried Singapore Math 2b and it went well until we got to 3a and got to multi-digit division. She could do it with the base ten set, but not on paper. This went on for a while. Finally, we moved to R&S Math b/c I was convinced it was the only way for her to learn those stubborn math facts. It turns out she knew most of the math facts by this point and R&S Math was overkill...At this point, it was April and our scheduled time to take the CAT test.

She took it and did advanced on everything except ....Math Computation...she received 9 out of 20 on it. So we began our summer school with Seton Mathematics 3. She will retest with the CAT the first week in July.

I have already purchased Saxon Math 5/4, Seton Mathematics 4, and Singapore 3a and 3b. I have no clue which one to use. I have no clue what will work. I do know that whatever we choose. We will not play musical math programs next year. I think we never got any further until we committed to the Seton Math 3 in April and are halfway through the book now.

How do I choose between the 3 math programs I have already purchased for next year? I would really like for her to be on grade level with math. Yet, I realize that was part of my problem this year. That I wanted to push her to grade level math when she had gaps from public school.

I've thought about a combination of Singapore and Saxon Math. I just wonder how to line it all up. I really didn't gain any insight into what kind of learner she is or whether she did better one way or the other b/c we switched too many times when the going got tough.

Any advise from those that have btdt would be appreciated.

[Guest mama24monkeys]

I pulled my oldest out of public school after 4th grade. We started with R&S and the year was horrible!! We switched to Saxon and he is doing SO much better. The Saxon math is very similar to the learning style his public school used and that is exactly what he needed. We supplement with Math Mammoth which I'm told is similar to Singapore and it works great! I have seen many moms on here mention using both Saxon and Singapore. Hopefully a few of them will chime in.

[swainsonshawk]

I think that what ever you choose, you may have to fill in the gaps. We use Singapore, but that is after trying a BUNCH of other programs and deciding that I just like Singapore the best. It still doesn't fit exactly. There are times that Singapore moves too fast and I have to stop and make up little worksheets for my kids to help them cement their understanding. I have just accepted that fact and stopped trying to find the "perfect" curriculum. Now, I'm not saying that Singapore math should be your choice, but just pick one (maybe Seton--seems like you liked that last year) and move forward until you meet a problem. At that point,make up your own worksheets, find an appropriate section from another math program that covers the problem differently, approach it from a million different angles, take a math break and work on facts for a week or a month and then go back to the original program and move forward again.

[RegularMom]

My suggestion is to pick a program and have her take the placement test for that program. Then use whatever level she places at. Don't worry about where she should be in terms of grade level. Go back to where she actually is, and teach her from there.

 

I use Saxon, and it works great for us, btw. My 3rd grader took the CAT this year and got a perfect score in both math sections.

 

HTH.

[Guest]

I think that what ever you choose, you may have to fill in the gaps. We use Singapore, but that is after trying a BUNCH of other programs and deciding that I just like Singapore the best. It still doesn't fit exactly. There are times that Singapore moves too fast and I have to stop and make up little worksheets for my kids to help them cement their understanding. I have just accepted that fact and stopped trying to find the "perfect" curriculum. Now, I'm not saying that Singapore math should be your choice, but just pick one (maybe Seton--seems like you liked that last year) and move forward until you meet a problem. At that point,make up your own worksheets, find an appropriate section from another math program that covers the problem differently, approach it from a million different angles, take a math break and work on facts for a week or a month and then go back to the original program and move forward again.

 

:iagree: This is really good advice.

 

When you're looking to supplement, I'd highly recommend taking a look at some of Marilyn Burns's math replacement units at http://www.mathsolutions.com

They are wonderful for setting up a problem in concrete terms, often using something the child makes, or manipulatives of some kind, and then working through the concepts behind the problem before moving to computational aspects. The lesson plans also go into detail about the common mistakes children make when tackling a particular type of problem and give examples of how to deal with that. They would be nice to introduce a new mathematical topic or to reinforce the concepts and workings of it once you've hit a snag with your main textbook.

[fractalgal]

Well, this has been our first home school year and my 4th grade dd's math has been a never ending nightmare. We tried 1. Scott Foresman Exploring Mathematics 2. Singapore 3. R&S Math and 4. Seton Mathematics...

She did poorly on the math computation part of the CAT and we are finishing Seton Mathematics over the summer. With Scott Foresman Exploring Math 4, I realized that she hadn't really learned 3rd grade math in public school b/c they stopped in December to test prep. for the state test. So we tried Singapore Math 2b and it went well until we got to 3a and got to multi-digit division. She could do it with the base ten set, but not on paper. This went on for a while. Finally, we moved to R&S Math b/c I was convinced it was the only way for her to learn those stubborn math facts. It turns out she knew most of the math facts by this point and R&S Math was overkill...At this point, it was April and our scheduled time to take the CAT test.

She took it and did advanced on everything except ....Math Computation...she received 9 out of 20 on it. So we began our summer school with Seton Mathematics 3. She will retest with the CAT the first week in July.

I have already purchased Saxon Math 5/4, Seton Mathematics 4, and Singapore 3a and 3b. I have no clue which one to use. I have no clue what will work. I do know that whatever we choose. We will not play musical math programs next year. I think we never got any further until we committed to the Seton Math 3 in April and are halfway through the book now.

How do I choose between the 3 math programs I have already purchased for next year? I would really like for her to be on grade level with math. Yet, I realize that was part of my problem this year. That I wanted to push her to grade level math when she had gaps from public school.

I've thought about a combination of Singapore and Saxon Math. I just wonder how to line it all up. I really didn't gain any insight into what kind of learner she is or whether she did better one way or the other b/c we switched too many times when the going got tough.

Any advise from those that have btdt would be appreciated.

 

My recommendation would be Saxon because it is so thorough with a lot of review. I'd have her take the placement test first. Once she feels more confident with that (if it works for her), I would add in Singapore on Fridays, in the summer or wherever you can fit it in.

 

I recommend Singapore because it presents concepts from a different angle and has excellent word problems.

 

I would take extra time for math if she needs to to get her at grade level.

 

Good luck.:)

[PollyOR]

Is it just a problem with computation? Does she understand the math but is just making simple math fact mistakes? My girls had the same problem around this age. I'm not sure what the cure is. I had to sit with one child and stop her when I saw her making mistakes.

 

If it is simply carelessness, I would stick with one program and work on being more careful while working the problems.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Is it just a problem with computation? Does she understand the math but is just making simple math fact mistakes? My girls had the same problem around this age. I'm not sure what the cure is. I had to sit with one child and stop her when I saw her making mistakes.

 

If it is simply carelessness, I would stick with one program and work on being more careful while working the problems.

 

We used Seton's CAT and didn't get a breakdown except math computations stanine was a 3. Math applications and concepts stanine was a 7. We sort of decided to stick with Seton Math 3 after the CAT and have been just working and correcting.

I do have Seton Math 4 bought, but in 5th grade Seton switches to Saxon 5/4. I am going to see if she can test in to 5/4 after finishing Seton Math 3.

I think I will try to add in some Singapore though b/c I think she needs to get better with mental math. I guess if she doesn't test into Saxon Math 5/4 then we will do Seton Math 4 next year.

[msjones]

It is so hard to see those test scores when you've been working so hard. Some things to consider...

 

I frequently see kids whose math computation scores are lower than other math scores. Sometimes, the format of the the computation questions on the test was unfamiliar to the child, and that threw them off enough to botch their score. (i.e. Some kids have never done a problem like : ____ = 8 x 7. Or, they've only done multiplication horizontally and the test presented it vertically. Or there was a term like 'product' or 'quotient' in the question that the child mixed up. Things like that...)

 

Did you see the test she took? Try asking her about that section. Was it timed, when she'd never been timed previously? Was she working the problem on scratch paper and transferring the answer to the bubble sheet? Had she done that sort of thing before? It seems simple to us, but the organizing/messiness of the scratch work can really throw a kid off. (They 'lose' the answer in all the messy scratch work, and really don't want to start over, so they guess.) Kids have told me all kinds of wonky things they've done to cope with testing situations.

 

Of course, she may just need more practice with straight computation. I just wanted to throw out these other possibilities.

[Tidbits of Learning]

It is so hard to see those test scores when you've been working so hard. Some things to consider...

 

I frequently see kids whose math computation scores are lower than other math scores. Sometimes, the format of the the computation questions on the test was unfamiliar to the child, and that threw them off enough to botch their score. (i.e. Some kids have never done a problem like : ____ = 8 x 7. Or, they've only done multiplication horizontally and the test presented it vertically. Or there was a term like 'product' or 'quotient' in the question that the child mixed up. Things like that...)

 

Did you see the test she took? Try asking her about that section. Was it timed, when she'd never been timed previously? Was she working the problem on scratch paper and transferring the answer to the bubble sheet? Had she done that sort of thing before? It seems simple to us, but the organizing/messiness of the scratch work can really throw a kid off. (They 'lose' the answer in all the messy scratch work, and really don't want to start over, so they guess.) Kids have told me all kinds of wonky things they've done to cope with testing situations.

 

Of course, she may just need more practice with straight computation. I just wanted to throw out these other possibilities.

 

She took the state test in 3rd grade and did well on math. I looked over it and the breakdown and it was more about concepts than actual computation.

She scored mastery in Math...

It had sections broke down with

Number and Number Relations 77%

Algebra 100%

Measurement 63%

Geometry 86%

Data Analysis, Probability, and Discrete Math 100%

Patterns, Relations, and Functions 80%.

 

Then it said dd's name scored at the mastery level in mathematics. Students scoring at this level generally exhibit the ability to

*use multiple strategies to solve real-life problems by using the four basic operations

*select and use mathematical operations, words, and symbols to solve real-life problems

*categorize and sort objects based on qualitative or quantitative characteristics

*draw logical conclusions and make predictions based on respresentations of data

*select and use appropriate tools and unit of measure

*compare and group two- and three- dimensional objects according to their attributes

and

*identify and extend patterns and relations

 

The CRT results on this report are reported according to five achievement levels: Advanced, Mastery, Basic, Approaching Basic, and Unsatisfactory.

 

She had also made an A as her final grade in math on her last public school report card in math.

 

So strangely enough in public school she aced math and their tests. However, with all the math programs that I used she struggled with multiplication and division (both of which were in her 3rd grade ps math book). That is why I chose SF Math at first since she did so well with ps math.

We took the CAT and I administered it. I saw the test and it was timed. There was 5 questions each on addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division in the math computation section. I do not know which ones she missed. I am guessing the mult. and div. sections. She was finishing way ahead of time though. So was her 3rd grade sister. I tested them together b/c the times were pretty much the same and the section examples also.

We had worked through a spectrum grade 4 test prep book before taking it. The CAT breakdown was a lot different than the state test.

Math Computation 13% 3 stanine

Concept and Application 80% 7 stanine

Math Total 39% 4 stanine

 

Her composite percentile for the whole CAT was 81%.

We used Seton's CAT. I plan to have her retake with CLP's online CAT after we finish Seton's Math 3 book.

 

I honestly don't understand how she could have such great grades in ps and test well there and come home and fall apart in math. I know they did a lot of work together in math and had the mult. and div. charts taped to their desk in school.

I tried really hard to make 4th grade math work until December. Then I just gave up and decided she had missed 3rd grade math somehow even though she had the grades and test scores.

I honestly am confused myself about it all.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I have BTDT but not with the programs you talked about- except for singapore. My dd completed 4th grade in public school then I homeschooled from 5th on (she will be in 7th this fall) I bought a 5th grade math curriculum and she looked at it like it was written in greek. After talking with her over what was in the table of contents I decided she was not ready for that. I got her a 4th grade math curriculum. No go. We had to start back at 3rd grade:glare: (and she was on the honor roll the entire time she was in public schools :001_huh:)

 

So we went with Bob Jones. I found a used 3rd grade and 5th grade book but I had to buy the 4th grade new. They are set up so when we did fractions in the 3rd grade book, we went to the 4th grade book. When we finished multiplying in 3rd, we did it in the 4th then 5th. That got her caught up withing 13 months I think It was. Now she is a strong math student. That was NOT a fun year, but we did it and now its so much better!

 

If you dont want BJU I would recommend you place her in any one of your programs and then do something similar. When I did that, I did not give her ALL the problems in each section (because each grade up had a whole review lesson) but I did enough so I knew she really understood it.

[Stacy in NJ]

I honestly don't understand how she could have such great grades in ps and test well there and come home and fall apart in math. I know they did a lot of work together in math and had the mult. and div. charts taped to their desk in school.

I tried really hard to make 4th grade math work until December. Then I just gave up and decided she had missed 3rd grade math somehow even though she had the grades and test scores.

I honestly am confused myself about it all.

 

Part of the problem is that via No Child Left Behind, each state sets up it's own standards, and some of these standards are, let's say, less than rigorous.

 

State's want to look like their making benchmarks and raising performance, so they set some pretty low standards and dumb down the tests.

 

Some states, like VA, NJ, TX and FL, have pretty high standards; others - not so much.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Part of the problem is that via No Child Left Behind, each state sets up it's own standards, and some of these standards are, let's say, less than rigorous.

 

State's want to look like their making benchmarks and raising performance, so they set some pretty low standards and dumb down the tests.

 

Some states, like VA, NJ, TX and FL, have pretty high standards; others - not so much.

 

I am not from the state we are in right now and they are low ranked compared to other states. I guess I just thought that 3rd grade math was 3rd grade math and 4th grade math was 4th grade math. That it all covered about the same topics. Maybe not the same way or in the same order, but it all got covered.

I honestly think that they stopped math altogether in 3rd grade after Christmas break to prepare for the state test.

I did not go to public school in elementary school and I was confused by their methods and logic while my children attended. I do not want a repeat of our math this school year. We ran in circles and got no where.

[skaterbabs]

This has been our 3rd year homeschooling, and everything we used the first two years (a list not unlike the OP's) bombed terribly. We found CLE and ordered it at least year's HEAV convention and we've been flying ever since. I love the fact that Yacko (who needs to at least touch on previous skills as he goes) does as well as Dot (who flew through the 100 level and is halfway through the 200 now).. It was a lazy year for Wacko, but he's done well. She he desire to do so, he could easily do two levels a year like Dot. We're not pushing that just yet. ;)

 

CLE is advanced, it runs a year ahead of VA SOLS. Definitely take the placement tests - they're on the website (clp.org) for you to print out yourself, or you can order print copies. Most kids work a year below their public school grade level. I.e., a 4th grader will do the 300 level, etc.

 

Yacko was very behind, and used the 600 level this year. He's almost caught up now, and will finish both the 700 and the 800 levels by Sept 2012, when he starts high school. Wacko started pretty much at exactly the right level, and has done the 500 level this year as a 6th grader. Dot flew through the 100 level (more than 75% of it was review for her, but most k/1st graders move more slowly because it introduces some skills that other programs don't even begin until grade 3) and is doing well in the 200 level. She'll start the 300 in October.

[Pongo]

I've thought about a combination of Singapore and Saxon Math. I just wonder how to line it all up. I really didn't gain any insight into what kind of learner she is or whether she did better one way or the other b/c we switched too many times when the going got tough.

Any advise from those that have btdt would be appreciated.

 

I had a similar situation, with my ds. He just needed more time, now he does so well in math. There is no need to hurry, the most important part of math is the basics, she'll need that to carry her. I really loved and still use parts of Mastering Mathematics. It's not a grade leveled program but a program that moved them through the basics for mastery and retention. Try to stop looking at grade levels and look at competency I wouldn't bother with the CAT again, it's awfully soon to see any huge results. JMHO...good luck!

[Guest]

CLE. That is all I have to say after trying 8 other math programs. There is a free placement test.