Rightstart to Math Mammoth and other RS questions

[Snowfall]

We have RS B and don't really like it. Okay, I like it a lot, but DD hates doing the tally sticks and abacus. On their placement questionnaire, she was ready for B, but I've since read everyone should probably start with A. I don't wish to go back at this point (she's finishing K!) so I'm not sure if she'll ever like B. She gets very annoyed with having to look at the abacus or tally sticks for some lessons. For example, 10 is 7+3 because it's 5+2+3, when you split the 3 from the 7. I think it's too cumbersome to her to have to look at it that way (is that base 5?). So my first question is, if we continue on and finish out level B (we're only on something like lesson 18, since we had to set it aside and do MEP so much, since she disliked RS because of all the tally stick and abacus work) might it eventually click with her? Did anyone have that happen with their own kids after starting at level B instead of A? It's not the whole program she hates. She's fine with doing the part/whole circles, the money, etc. She just doesn't like using the abacus and tally sticks, which the program wants us to use all.the.time.

 

My second question is if we can go from RS B to MM 2nd grade. If she still hates RS when we finish B, I'm planning to switch to MM for our main program (while still using MEP on the side). However, if RS B won't prepare her for the 2nd grade level of MM, I don't want to continue with RS and then have to start over at 1st grade level in MM.

 

Thanks!

[Capt_Uhura]

No, you don't have to do RS A. The original program started w/ RS B. A was added for those wishing to start in K rather than 1st and needed a more gentle introduction.

 

Well, the abacus will be with you off and on until division. I would say ditch the sticks (never used them much myself) and the abacus if she could do those activities easily. But the foundation of RS and SM and possibly MM which I've read is based on "Asian math" and if so, would use a similar methodology. Being able to break numbers apart is the foundation and required for later mental math of 2digit numbers (addition and subtraction and multiplication and division). Mostly I think it boils down to making a ten for most strategies.

 

perhaps move ahead in RS and practice w/ games rather than using the tally sticks.

 

After re-reading your post, I'd be inclined to ditch RS since you're not that far into it, and just start from the beginning w/ MM since it seems your inclined to go that route. I would just read through the first year of MM and see how it compares to what your DD hates about RS. If she is having issues w/ taking numbers apart, and that's the cornerstone of MM, you'll have the same issues.

 

I know I've just confused you more lol and for that I apologize. I've used RS A-E and A-C w/ 2 boys but if it doesn't work for your DD, it doesn't work. But you need to figure out why so you don't buy another program only for her to dislike it for the same reason.

 

Capt_Uhura

[Snowfall]

No, you were helpful. Thank you. :) I don't think it's that DD necessarily has trouble breaking numbers apart. She just doesn't like the way RS wants her to see everything as 5 + whatever. She knows 7+3=10 and 5+2=7 and 5+2+3=10 (although she'd have to think about the last one for a few minutes, adding the 5+2 first, then the 7+3). It's just that she doesn't like to look at the abacus and have to SEE that there are 5 blues and 2 yellows on the left, making 7. She gets really upset about having to always see how many are there. It frustrates her. She knows 8 is 5+3, but she doesn't want to look at the abacus and figure out how many are on there by looking at how many of each color are entered. It makes her MAD. :glare:

 

So is the whole program a loss because of that, or can we still use it? She knows how to break apart numbers (Thanks, MEP!) but she hates the way RS wants her to see everything in relation to 5 by using the abacus. I'm hoping that as we get further into the program, we can maybe move past all that physically seeing everything the way it relates to five and she might enjoy the rest of it?

[cathmom]

If she already knows it, then why is she having to look at the abacus?

[truebluexf]

After having done B with my DS, I got A for DD this year. I hate it. It was just B done so. slowly. with all kind of extra lessons. I would seriously consider hanging out where she is now and playing games, then starting back up again next year. It is likely she just isn't ready. Also, I stopped asking DS to "see" it all in his mind because I think he WAS, but my verbalizing it confused him and frustrated him. Understanding the 5's makes math overall SO much easier than the way I learned, and I feel like RS shows math in a way that took me til I was an adult to figure out on my own. I think it's possible you are focusing too much on the process. I found that, sometimes, showing DS too many ways to do something he already seems to have found a way to do confused him so much that in the end he couldn't do it all. I think if she gets it, and can do the facts, then I would just move on. Level A goes through lesson 25 of B, so you are almost through the whole level A anyway. I don't know anything about Math Mammoth, so I can't help there. If she understands the 5 breakdown at least a little then I think she will be ok. I would however be confident in stopping at this point and playing games for the rest of the year and summer and restarting in the fall or whenever you start again. Often parking for a while in one spot really allows the concepts to develop further while their brain grows and then suddenly it all clicks. :)

[DarlaS]

If she already knows it, then why is she having to look at the abacus?

 

:iagree:

 

Make your life and hers a little easier by not teaching (over and over again) things she already knows. I have a couple kids like that too. It BUGS them to review, and I only make them do it if it's needed (and then not usually all of it).

 

So far, so good!

[Crimson Wife]

I used RS B & C with my oldest and then switched her to Singapore at 3A. The tally sticks are such a small part of the RS program, I wouldn't hesitate at all to ditch them. The abacus is central to RS but only as a tool to get the child to the point where he/she understands a concept mentally. If your DD already knows that 10 = 5 + 2 + 3, then by all means don't force her to use the abacus for it.

[christine in al]

i too think , loose the tally sticks.

does she loathe " yellow is the sun" ?

my visual child drew a picture of all the components of the song so when we used it to warm up she looked at her picture. we sang it once a day at the begiing of the lesson, moved on,

 

the concept of 5 + is very helpful later. perhaps show her how it will help her later. I am always more ppen to learning something if I know there is a point to the seeming inane exercise.

 

If your drawn (spelling?) to RS, you may take a peek at Miquion, There was a recent post about how it is very Montesorri.

 

good luck.

~c.

[Capt_Uhura]

:iagree: The abacus is a tool. If you don't need the tool, don't use it. If she can take 5+7=5+5+2=10+2 then don't use the abacus. Going too slow can be as bad as going too fast. The hard part is finding the sweet spot! If it's only the abacus, ditch it for now, and move forward and see how it goes. You'll probably get back to the abacus when you do 4 digit addition with trading.

 

Capt_Uhura

[Snowfall]

If she already knows it, then why is she having to look at the abacus?

 

I guess because I was following the directions in the TM too closely, rather than just doing it the way that worked for her. :blushing: I'm still new at all this, so when it told me to have her do things on the abacus, I did...and she got mad. I was afraid that ditching the thing would cause her to miss out on some vital concept or method or something. If it's fine to move on without it, then I most certainly will, but if she needs to do all that abacus work, seeing the yellow and blue beads in order to benefit from the program, then I didn't want her to miss out on it. She does need to think to figure out it's 5+2+3, so seeing it on the abacus would be faster until she can do it mentally, if it weren't for the fact that she hates the abacus. In order to know that it's 5+2+3, she has to think that it's 7+3 and that 7 is 5+2. If she could see that on the abacus without getting so bent out of shape, it might help make it more concrete. She doesn't like seeing it, though. I don't know a better way to explain it.

[Greta]

I think it's too cumbersome to her to have to look at it that way (is that base 5?).

 

No, it's still base 10. It's just that since we have five fingers, per hand of course, five is a number that is very easy to understand and visualize. But if your daughter already gets that eight is five and three, I wouldn't annoy her with it. :D. Just skip those lessons or those parts of the lessons. Ditch the tally sticks too. They're only there to help, and it sounds like your dd already understands the concepts they are teaching.

 

MEP is a great program. It sounds like you know where to place her in it, because you're using it successfully. Have you considered using it as your primary program? A lot of people just look at the practice sheets, but if you teach from the lesson pages, it is a very through program. Just a thought. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

Does she think the abacus is babyish? How about show her a Japanese or Chinese abacus? The 5s are built into it. Find some websites pitting a Soroban (Japanese abacus) w/ someone using a calculator and show that the person using the Soroban wins.

 

There's a later lesson called the Two fives strategy. many kids have a hard time with that. I think SM doesn't stress it as much as RS but rather mainly does make 10 strategy. I had my son use the two fives strategy for that less but after that I let him use whichever method was most efficient for him. Them comes my 2nd son, and the two fives strategy was very natural for him and he still uses. 17+5=15+5+2=20+2=22 whereas my older son would do 20+3=23. It just depends on how their brain works.

 

I wouldn't worry so much about her getting faster. Introduce the concept w/ the abacus, after that let her do it mentally. What I do OFTEN is I do the problem myself, verbally going through the steps so DC can hear how I do it. And I would work it out on the abacus for myself.

 

Capt_Uhura

[truebluexf]

I guess because I was following the directions in the TM too closely, rather than just doing it the way that worked for her. :blushing: I'm still new at all this, so when it told me to have her do things on the abacus, I did...and she got mad. I was afraid that ditching the thing would cause her to miss out on some vital concept or method or something. If it's fine to move on without it, then I most certainly will, but if she needs to do all that abacus work, seeing the yellow and blue beads in order to benefit from the program, then I didn't want her to miss out on it. She does need to think to figure out it's 5+2+3, so seeing it on the abacus would be faster until she can do it mentally, if it weren't for the fact that she hates the abacus. In order to know that it's 5+2+3, she has to think that it's 7+3 and that 7 is 5+2. If she could see that on the abacus without getting so bent out of shape, it might help make it more concrete. She doesn't like seeing it, though. I don't know a better way to explain it.

 

I know what you are saying here. It's taken me 2 years to realize we can do it our way, at our own pace, and I am finally not freaking out that we are only on lesson 92 of C this year instead of finishing it. I rushed through B and felt like DS wasn't completely strong in it, so this year I took it slower. And guess what? Even when I tested him around lesson 75 or so he placed at 3rd grade in math, even though he is 'second' grade....so I try to not stress too much anymore. The computations will get faster as she goes on. Does she do the worksheets? I can't remember when B starts the drill sheets. These help along the way too. I would really stress just taking it slowly since she is in kindergarten this year. She is young, and already ahead of standards if she is able to do that kind of math at this point.

[pageta]

We ditched Right Start B and started Math Mammoth. Best decision I ever made. We really like it, and it teaches the concepts forwards, backwards and inside out without being overly repetitive or skimming over things. If you're thinking of taking the leap, just do it.

[Greta]

I guess because I was following the directions in the TM too closely, rather than just doing it the way that worked for her. :blushing: I'm still new at all this, so when it told me to have her do things on the abacus, I did...and she got mad. I was afraid that ditching the thing would cause her to miss out on some vital concept or method or something

 

Don't be embarrassed! We've ALL been there, done that. It's hard to now when to follow the curriculum, and when to drop, add, or change things. Your concerns were perfectly valid. I would have eked the same questions in your shoes.

:001_smile:

[Snowfall]

We did start using MEP for our primary program, going very slowly because some of the puzzly things she doesn't always get. I have used the lesson plans. :) I really, really like MEP. I also really, really like RS. DD really, really likes colorful math worksheets and neither of those programs fulfill her desire for colorful worksheets, so sometimes we do the lesson plan for MEP then do a dollar workbook sheet instead of the MEP sheet, if the MEP sheet for the day isn't something really original. I bought the whole Horizons 1 package on the for sale board, just because of the colorful workbook. I figured we could use it sometimes just for the worksheets DD finds so visually appealing. Plus, anything that makes her want to get out a worksheet and do it just for fun is okay with me. (Don't worry - I'm not going to make DD do three full math programs.)

 

I do want to use the full RS, though, since I spent so much money on it and hear so many good things about it and like the games and, and, and. lol Plus, I already found out that SWR wasn't a good fit for reading, so it's hard to accept that RS might not be a good fit for math, either. I mean, how bad can one mother be at choosing curricula for her child? :tongue_smilie:

[Capt_Uhura]

Snowfall ....believe when I say most of us have been there! What works for a few months, doesn't work for the next few.

 

I know SWR is supposed to be a reading program but I like it better as a spelling program.

[Snowfall]

Well, I guess it's good to know that I'm not just a monumental home schooling failure. :lol:

 

Thank you all so much for your help! I guess I'll try RS without making her do anymore abacus if she's still totally against the abacus after the suggestions you've given me. If she still doesn't like it, then we'll move on to MM.