Grammar book advice needed for 5 year old

[crazyforlatin]

My daughter (almost 5) just started working on Working with Ease by Ms. Bauer. We really love it, but now I have to decide what grammar book to use. I just read about MCT on another thread, but the price seems really high for a grammar program. If people have been using MCT, please kindly let me know whether it incorporates copywork and narration, since WWE has this, and I didn't want to pay just to skip these two areas, and why they chose MCT over other programs. Also, I've considered FLL, but I haven't gone the next step of purchasing it (e.g. reviews are mixed). Of course if anyone has used and loved FLL, please let me know also. I was also thinking of Sonlight's Language Arts which incorporates copywork, narration, and grammar. For $38, it's cheaper than some other programs. However, Sonlight does not teach sentence diagramming at all in their higher level Language Arts books, so I hesitated in starting with their program; it teaches grammar for the sake of writing well.

 

Any other suggestions?

[Laurel]

MCT does not include copywork and narration. The reason it is so (relatively) expensive is because it is grammar, writing, vocabulary, AND poetics. Though I have only looked through Island level, I think WWE complements it well, as they work on different skills. I wouldn't use MCT with a 5 year old, however. I know a few people around here have used it with their 6 yos, but the program (Island level) is designed for gifted 3rd graders, or average 4th graders.

 

We just finished FLL 1/2. It is thorough, can be done orally (great for younger kids), and it is relatively easy to combine and skip lessons. It can be boring and repetitious, and the scripts can be annoying, but it worked for us. (FYI - we have had no problems with retention, but I have heard others mention that their dc didn't actually retain any of the info.)

 

One last suggestion: if you are comfortable with grammar yourself, you could just do grammar informally while doing WWE. Bring up punctuation as it occurs, and slowly introduce the parts of speech. Add in types of sentences (again, incidentally, when the copywork is a question), and that's pretty much the extent of FLL. And then begin a more formal study of grammar in a year or two.

[Crimson Wife]

Which FLL book are you considering? 1/2 does not get into diagramming at all.

 

My oldest did a highly condensed version of FLL 1/2 for her K5 year. Her fine motor skills were not ready for all the written copywork & dictation, however. So she did WWE1 in 1st. I really liked the strong foundation FLL 1/2 provided.

 

She probably could've handled the "island" level of MCT last year for 1st but I was skeptical about the program based on my preview of the 3 elementary grammar books (and only the grammar books, which was a mistake). She started the "town" level the 2nd semester of 2nd grade.

 

Diagramming is a skill that I do want to teach but I haven't yet decided when or which materials I want to use. I liked the look of this workbook at the curriculum fair my local support group held the other night.

 

I am planning to try FLL 1/2 with my younger kids once they are fluent readers. But if it isn't a good "fit", then I might just wait until they are old enough for MCT "island".

[crazyforlatin]

I was thinking of FLL 1/2, but after reading through the threads here, I'm leaning towards MCT Grammar Island and the other books in the Island level. I know that beginning books on grammar will probably not contain diagramming, but I wanted to make sure that subsequent books of the same program would cover it, so that I know their philosophy is to teach diagramming. I was excited about Sonlight's Language Arts until the company told me that diagramming is not covered and that formal grammar is covered to the extent it improves writing. I'm sure this is fine, but I just have a preference to teach diagramming.

 

By the way you mentioned that you were skeptical after previewing the 3 MCT grammar books. Do you mean Island, Town, and Voyage? Could you explain further your opinion, if you have time?

 

Thanks for suggesting the diagramming workbook. We can always supplement if a program doesn't cover it.

[catz]

I am using a modified FLL 1/2 with my kindergartner, and 1st year MCT with my 3rd grader. Both are HG-PG. My 3rd grader had very little grammar before this year, and it might have helped him a little to have some ahead of time. Which is why we are doing FLL with my 5 year old. I don't LOVE FLL, but it is reasonably priced and is getting the job done while waiting until she's ready to really dive into MCT. I also skip, modify, and ignore the scripting regularly. My 3rd grader reads at high school level and is very comfortable with writing. It was really easy and fun jumping into MCT with him, but there are other ways to approach it for sure.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm leaning towards MCT Grammar Island and the other books in the Island level. I know that beginning books on grammar will probably not contain diagramming, but I wanted to make sure that subsequent books of the same program would cover it, so that I know their philosophy is to teach diagramming.

 

MCT does not teach diagramming. He has his own method of analyzing sentences. On the first line, the student labels each part of speech. On the second line, the student marks the subject, predicate, direct & indirect objects or the subject complement. On the third line, the student marks phrases. On the fourth line, the student marks clauses.

 

I personally think there's merit to traditional sentence diagramming and as I mentioned earlier, I do plan on teaching it at some point.

 

By the way you mentioned that you were skeptical after previewing the 3 MCT grammar books. Do you mean Island, Town, and Voyage? Could you explain further your opinion, if you have time?

 

I had originally looked at Grammar Island, Grammar Town, and Grammar Voyage but none of the other MCT materials. IMHO these books are not "meaty" enough to function as standalone grammar books. I came away from my preview thinking, "is that it?"

 

However, once I got the complete "town" level, I realized that there is a ton of grammar instruction in the "writing" book (which I had not originally previewed). Between Grammar Town, Paragraph Town, and Practice Town there is indeed a rigorous grammar program, which had not been apparent from my original preview. You need to use them all together.

[crazyforlatin]

Thank you for that because I was thinking of perhaps just buying the grammar book to try it out, but after your preview, I think it's best to get the basic homeschool set, and I'm actually kind of excited about delving into Poetry with my daughter since even at this young age of 5, she has been claiming that she doesn't like it. I have my own aversion and may have passed it on unintentionally, but I'm also hoping to study it and love it.

[anabelneri]

Thank you for that because I was thinking of perhaps just buying the grammar book to try it out, but after your preview, I think it's best to get the basic homeschool set, and I'm actually kind of excited about delving into Poetry with my daughter since even at this young age of 5, she has been claiming that she doesn't like it. I have my own aversion and may have passed it on unintentionally, but I'm also hoping to study it and love it.

 

I have a 6yo and we're using MCT this year, and I'm pretty happy with it.

 

We just started the poetics book recently. I'd say that it's my dd's least favorite of the series. However, we've been doing poetry memorization on the side (IEW's Linguistic Development through Poetry Memorization) and it has been very enjoyable.

 

One thing I'd say about MCT is that, while I'm using it with my very verbal 1st grader, she's not really ready to do the writing assignments yet. She has picked up a lot from just reading through Grammar Island and Sentence Island, and she really really likes the Building Language book, but as soon as we start to do one of the exercises we hit a wall. I've actually put the whole series aside for the rest of the school year, and I'll try again next year sometime. I really want her to enjoy the assignments, but it's clear that she's not ready for them yet. Realizing that helped me see how it is that this program is really intended for gifted 3rd graders. I figure I've got 2 more years to work through the Island Level before we'd fall "behind"! :tongue_smilie:

 

Meanwhile, we seem to be falling into the Five in a Row crowd. It's so gentle, yet it does get into some pretty nice topics (we're discussing a couple literary devices and some multiplication basics this week!)

[Brindee]

MCT does not include copywork and narration. The reason it is so (relatively) expensive is because it is grammar, writing, vocabulary, AND poetics. Though I have only looked through Island level, I think WWE complements it well, as they work on different skills. I wouldn't use MCT with a 5 year old, however. I know a few people around here have used it with their 6 yos, but the program (Island level) is designed for gifted 3rd graders, or average 4th graders.

 

One thing I'd say about MCT is that, while I'm using it with my very verbal 1st grader, she's not really ready to do the writing assignments yet. She has picked up a lot from just reading through Grammar Island and Sentence Island, and she really really likes the Building Language book, but as soon as we start to do one of the exercises we hit a wall. I've actually put the whole series aside for the rest of the school year, and I'll try again next year sometime. I really want her to enjoy the assignments, but it's clear that she's not ready for them yet. Realizing that helped me see how it is that this program is really intended for gifted 3rd graders. I figure I've got 2 more years to work through the Island Level before we'd fall "behind"! :tongue_smilie:

 

I was thinking of FLL 1/2, but after reading through the threads here, I'm leaning towards MCT Grammar Island and the other books in the Island level.

:confused: You're asking for advice for a 5yo, people give you advice, and you decide to get the grammar that they say is for 3rd & 4th graders for your 5yo? I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me there was clear advice that it's NOT a good thing for a 5yo! :001_huh:

 

Your 5yo may be advanced, but there are more age-appropriate advanced grammar programs available! It seems you may be pushing your little one a bit much and asking for frustration for her AND you!

 

If you can clear up what I hope is my misconception of what's been said, please do so!

 

I know that beginning books on grammar will probably not contain diagramming, but I wanted to make sure that subsequent books of the same program would cover it, so that I know their philosophy is to teach diagramming. I was excited about Sonlight's Language Arts until the company told me that diagramming is not covered and that formal grammar is covered to the extent it improves writing. I'm sure this is fine, but I just have a preference to teach diagramming.

5 is rather young to begin diagramming. Rod & Staff has an advanced grammar program that uses diagramming, but not for the first level or two. Then they introduce it gradually. By the time they get to level 6, it's pretty rigorous..........well, for people like me who moved a lot while growing up, and didn't get good grammar instruction at all! :D

 

You might want to look into it if you haven't, though it doesn't start 'til grade 2. At least it's something to keep in mind!

Edited April 28, 2010 by Brindee

[Kuovonne]

If you want your daughter to like poetry, I suggest starting with Bravewriter Poetry Teatimes. I started them when my kids were 3 and 5 and they both love poetry now (my older daughter more so than my younger).

 

I also use MCT island level with my 6 (almost 7) year old and I love it. I didn't discover MCT LA until she was six and a half, but if I had found it sooner, I probaby would have tried it sooner. It was the first grammar program that "clicked" with me.

 

MCT LA does not teach diagramming. Instead, he teaches a four level analysis of sentences, which I think is easier to grasp than diagramming but just as effective for understanding grammar. MCT LA also doesn't do any narration, copywork, or dictation.

 

You say that your daughter is "almost 5." That sounds like she is still four years old. Since this is the accelerated board, I don't think her age should determine whether she is "too young" for MCT. Rather, look at her other skills: is she reading fluently? is her handwriting fluent? does she make grammatical mistakes that require grammar instruction to fix? does she want to learn grammar?

Edited April 28, 2010 by Kuovonne

[nmoira]

Your 5yo may be advanced, but there are more age-appropriate advanced grammar programs available! It seems you may be pushing your little one a bit much and asking for frustration for her AND you!

Well.... for a five year old who is verbally advanced and interested in grammar (mine was), Grammar Island and Sentence Island can be tremendous fun, and relatively little output is expected. However, the program ramps up pretty quickly with respect to output, and I'm only just now reintroducing MCT with DD the Elder (now 8). So, by all means, you can do the Island level with an interested 5yo, but I'd say be prepared to leave it at that if needs be. We've done no formal grammar outside of Latin in the interim.

[crazyforlatin]

:confused: You're asking for advice for a 5yo, people give you advice, and you decide to get the grammar that they say is for 3rd & 4th graders for your 5yo? I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me there was clear advice that it's NOT a good thing for a 5yo! :001_huh:

 

 

I should have mentioned that we've been studying Henle for some time, and before that, Getting Started with Latin, so DD understands the basics of Latin grammar. She's been declining nouns and translating Latin to English and back for almost a year. I've been informally teaching grammar to her while teaching her Latin, and I think she may be ready for more formal English grammar - maybe a grammar program that is almost as advanced as what is required by Henle. WTM mentions that Henle should be started either in middle school if a child has previously studied Latin, otherwise in high school, but I don't think it means that a 5-year old could not successfully study Henle, given some prior knowledge. We haven't had any problems with Henle and in fact Latin is our favorite subject. I've come to realize that a general suggestion of age-appropriate material is just that - a generalization. I've read in other threads that some 6-year olds have had no problems with MCT, so I'm hoping we'll also be able to use and love it.

 

I'm just really glad that people mentioned MCT to me because I was really hoping for a grammar program that is fun yet challenging. Not sure how much fun it is, but animals having conversations about grammar seems like something that would suit DD.

 

Thanks for your concern, and maybe I'll post a comment about our reaction to MCT in 2 weeks.

Edited April 29, 2010 by crazyforlatin

[mommy4ever]

My daughter (almost 5) just started working on Working with Ease by Ms. Bauer. We really love it, but now I have to decide what grammar book to use. I just read about MCT on another thread, but the price seems really high for a grammar program. If people have been using MCT, please kindly let me know whether it incorporates copywork and narration, since WWE has this, and I didn't want to pay just to skip these two areas, and why they chose MCT over other programs. Also, I've considered FLL, but I haven't gone the next step of purchasing it (e.g. reviews are mixed). Of course if anyone has used and loved FLL, please let me know also. I was also thinking of Sonlight's Language Arts which incorporates copywork, narration, and grammar. For $38, it's cheaper than some other programs. However, Sonlight does not teach sentence diagramming at all in their higher level Language Arts books, so I hesitated in starting with their program; it teaches grammar for the sake of writing well.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

If you liked Writing with Ease, have you considered

First Language Lessons for the Well-Trained Mind?

 

By Jessie Wise?

 

I have started this with my dd6, and she likes it. She loves everything to do with Peacehill Press.

 

I am doing a review with dd11, as I have no idea if she did much grammar at the school she was in, and she is enjoying it too.We are doing it as narrative for her so far and doing only dictation for the activities for her to expand her retention.

 

All the reading materials required are all included in the student pages at the back of the book, the instructor part is at the beginning. It is available as a paperback or PDF. The first book is Level 1 and 2, no separate Instructor guide. PDF is only $15, no shipping :). Level 3 and 4 are 2 separate books each having separate instructor books. So 4 books for the last 2 levels.

 

The Well-Trained Mind has recommendations beyond level 4, to continue the grammar path.

[nmoira]

 

I should have mentioned that we've been studying Henle for some time, and before that, Getting Started with Latin, so DD understands the basics of Latin grammar.

If this is the case, I'm not sure why you feel the need to add in a grammar program. If you don't mind my asking, how time do you spend doing school per day? At five, I was trimming all the extra fat I could to give DD the Elder enough to keep her engaged, but still keep school down to no more than an hour per day (not including read alouds). It's a fine line, but for the most part I managed to walk it.

[crazyforlatin]

If this is the case, I'm not sure why you feel the need to add in a grammar program. If you don't mind my asking, how time do you spend doing school per day? At five, I was trimming all the extra fat I could to give DD the Elder enough to keep her engaged, but still keep school down to no more than an hour per day (not including read alouds). It's a fine line, but for the most part I managed to walk it.

 

I'm not confident enough in my grammar knowledge to only teach it from Henle. Also, being new to forum, I've developed a terrible habit of looking at all the suggested curricula and longing for them.

 

I was once asked the same question by a couple of non-homeschool parents on how much time I spend teaching because the answer is about an hour, if I added up 10 minutes here and there (also not including free reading time, read aloud). Parents of kids who go to traditional schools seem to spend a lot of time afterschooling - I'm talking about the parents I know who have k-2 children, and yet, I'm spending so little time. However, I can't tell others that DD reads chapter books so that she can learn on her own (she doesn't think it's learning) when other parents are still trying to teach their 5-6 year kids to read. Anyway, the reaction is "What? One hour?", and I'm sure they're all thinking I'm a delinquent parent.

[mtollie]

I've been using FLL with my advanced 5yo this year. It's a a nice, gentle overview of the basics of grammar without lots of writing activity. When we finish FLL 1/2 (probably by the fall, she'll be 6 by then), I'm planning to begin the MCT series with her. Could she understand the MCT now? Probably, but I prefer her to get this solid foundation first. Maybe you've already gotten that from your Latin studies with dd. When we get to the sentence work in MCT, I want her to be able to move forward with that...

[Brindee]

I should have mentioned that we've been studying Henle for some time, and before that, Getting Started with Latin, so DD understands the basics of Latin grammar. She's been declining nouns and translating Latin to English and back for almost a year. I've been informally teaching grammar to her while teaching her Latin, and I think she may be ready for more formal English grammar - maybe a grammar program that is almost as advanced as what is required by Henle. WTM mentions that Henle should be started either in middle school if a child has previously studied Latin, otherwise in high school, but I don't think it means that a 5-year old could not successfully study Henle, given some prior knowledge. We haven't had any problems with Henle and in fact Latin is our favorite subject. I've come to realize that a general suggestion of age-appropriate material is just that - a generalization. I've read in other threads that some 6-year olds have had no problems with MCT, so I'm hoping we'll also be able to use and love it.

 

I'm just really glad that people mentioned MCT to me because I was really hoping for a grammar program that is fun yet challenging. Not sure how much fun it is, but animals having conversations about grammar seems like something that would suit DD.

 

Thanks for your concern, and maybe I'll post a comment about our reaction to MCT in 2 weeks.

Thanks for the explanation, that does help! I don't know anything about MCT, I just saw 2 or 3 people say they WOULDN'T use it for a younger one, then you said you were going to. So, from this distance, I didn't understand! :tongue_smilie:

 

Now that I see where she's been, it DOES make sense to go there with the background she's had with Henle. :001_smile: She sounds like my oldest--a gift for languages.