Help! I'm struggling here...

[Cornerstone Classical]

I'm second guessing my school plan for next year. I need to have this settled! Please help me think this through!

First of all,

 

This quote is what won me over to classical education:

 

 

 

To the classical mind, all knowledge is interrelated. Astronomy (for example) isn't studied in isolation; it's learned along with the history of scientific discovery, which leads into the church's relationship to science and from there to the intricacies of medieval church history. The reading of the Odyssey leads the student into the consideration of Greek history, the nature of heroism, the development of the epic, and man's understanding of the divine. --Susan Wise Bauer, in her essay,

What is Classical Education?

 

 

 

OK, I have looked at ALL the curriculum out there for a History/Science/Bible combo. Believe me, I have looked at all the programs out there. So I'm not asking for someone to lead me to the best program/curriculum.

 

The programs that I BELIEVE would be the best fit for my dc and me are MFW for History/Bible and for science Apologia. I abolutely love these programs as much as I love classical education.

 

But here's the problem that I'm struggling with...

 

If I do these programs I will be giving up the "quentessential" classical/trivium lay out that won me over to classical education in the first place.

 

If I do MFW I will be giving up a three 4-yr rotation. My dc will be in grades 4-7 the first time we go into the first cycle of chronological history thus, only having 2 rotations, not three. I also like how MFW has the student study a year of geography before going into chron. history.

 

If I do Apologia it will not line up with the specific subjects that are supposed to be studied along with the chron. history rotation in the classical model.

 

So the question that I keep obsessing about is do I stay with my choices and forego the chronological interrelated history/science that makes perfect sense which I love, or forego the curriculum that I love and stick with the classical/trivium model. In my mind one does not out weigh the other and my dc are bright and I know they can do really anything... :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Trivium Academy]

How do the Pros/Cons line up?

 

First of all, aligning science with history can be done by reading scientist biographies in the history timeline, separate from any science curriculum you choose. You can notebook about scientific achievements and technologies in your history curriculum while doing a separate science curriculum. You can do both without too much trouble.

 

Which ideal is better? Chronological 4yr rotations or a curriculum that you like and makes your experience a little more enjoyable without coordinating and planning? Whichever route will be the most enjoyable and will be accomplished is the way to go.

 

I would go for the tools that make your experience better than being a slave to an ideal picture which you cannot find enjoyable materials for. I hope this helps. :)

[Sue G in PA]

I agree w/ everything you said. All the reasons you mentioned FOR loving Classical Education...I loved. Still do. When I found MFW, it through a wrench in the works for me. :glare: What it came down to for me was REALITY! If I was to have my dc studying history together, one or more of them was NOT going to get that perfect 4yr. rotation anyway! Do you see what I mean? Even SWB herself mentions this dilemna in WTM. Where to start when starting in the middle? Some wise woman on this board reminded me that no matter how many complete rotations my child gets...she/he will still be getting so much more history than any ps student. THat eased my mind.

 

As for Apologia...if you look at what is covered in MFW science I think it does actually match up w/ the rotations somewhat. For us, my plan is to do our own science anyway with MFW simply b/c of where our interests lie. My ultimate suggestion is this...pray about this. I'm willing to bet that if you are "drawn" to MFW...there is a divine reason for that! My heart is "drawn" to so many different curriculums (for subjects that MFW doesn't teach) and I was so confused. I finally had to take a step back and pray. When I sat back down to look at my choices...I was "drawn" to one choice over the others every time. I took that as my answer from God.

 

I'm not telling you which to choose and I hope I haven't confused you any more b/c I know exactly where you are. Classical education is terrific, but to follow any program/model to a "tee" hardly ever works in real life, with real kids, real learning differences, etc. Do you KWIM? We take the parts that we like, the parts that work best for our family and put them to use in our homeschool. MFW closely follows the classical history rotation...just adds in that extra year of Geography (which you said you liked and I do too...we are actually taking a break from the rotation to do ECC next year).

 

Okay, hope I've helped!

[Donna T.]

If I do MFW I will be giving up a three 4-yr rotation.

 

Yes, MFW is not set up exactly the same but it is really close. My oldest son started out studying the Ancients in first grade. We used MFW First Grade. It is an excellent first study of the Ancients. Of course, it focuses on the Bible but we think that is very appropriate for such a young child. When we came to places on our time-line (that comes with MFW) that I wanted to integrate some World History (extra-Biblical, that is), I would just check a book out from the library on that topic. That year, we also read brief books about King Tut, Homer, Alexander the Great, etc. Just enough to intro. the name and get an idea of what that person had done that made him or her noteworthy.

 

After MFW, we spent a few months reading (lightly) about the early church, knights and castles, vikings... just enough to continue the flow of history and provide brief information to build on later. Videos are good for this. Then, we started Adventures in MFW. It starts out with the Vikings.

 

So, even though it was a two year curriculum, I added to it here and there (using mostly library books, not another curriculum) just enough to flesh it out a little bit. By doing so, it felt like we had been through a cycle by the end of Adventures. So, a two (well, two and a half for us) year cycle rather than four.

 

This is how it worked for my oldest son. We are now using Biblioplan. We started out on the Ancients. So, this will be a second cycle for my oldest, but it's the first, obviously, for my youngest. This way, both of them will have a four year cycle coming up.

 

As for ECC, I may go back and do it later on, after this year. I think when they are young, it is very appropriate to take a year off in the cycle to do something like geography.

 

Well, this is how it worked for us. You can flesh MFW out with some World History. MFW likes Apologia, too. You can add certain science topics to MFW as you go, just try to use library books rather than buying another full-fledged, complete, too much to do and the kids don't need that much info. anyway, kind of curriculum.

 

If you like MFW enough to stick with it for the long-haul, you will get two very fleshed out cycles plus the brief intro. when they are younger.

 

It's worked fine for us.

 

Remember, there is more than one way to skin a squirrel. That's what my grandpaw always said.

[Mama Lynx]

If I do MFW I will be giving up a three 4-yr rotation. My dc will be in grades 4-7 the first time we go into the first cycle of chronological history thus, only having 2 rotations, not three. I also like how MFW has the student study a year of geography before going into chron. history.

 

If I do Apologia it will not line up with the specific subjects that are supposed to be studied along with the chron. history rotation in the classical model.

 

 

It's okay. Really. Your kids are very young, and a perfect cycle and correlation at this age is not important. (Actually, it's not important at any age, but especially at this age.) It's wonderful to do, if you can, but it is not going to give your children a less than classical education.

 

So do these programs, and start a more WTM-ish four-year rotation the next time around. You will still reap excellent benefits.

 

The WTM science doesn't really correlate all that well with history, anyway. Parts of it do, but in general, I thought it was a stretch. Read biographies of scientists at the appropriate point in your history studies; or, when you are learning about scientific discoveries, remind your children of what was going on in history then. You can get all those connections by being aware yourself, and talking with them. :001_smile:

[dragons in the flower bed]

If I do MFW I will be giving up a three 4-yr rotation. My dc will be in grades 4-7 the first time we go into the first cycle of chronological history thus, only having 2 rotations, not three. I also like how MFW has the student study a year of geography before going into chron. history.

 

There's no rule which says you have to do every program offered by a curriculum company, or do a one-year theme over the course of one year. If I were in your position, I'd skip the early grades programs that are not in the cycle, start with MFW's ancients theme in 1st grade, doing on history theme each year, and spread the geography theme out over the four years, doing one semester every year.

 

Is MFW a four day program? Could you do ECC on the fifth day, or by switching to a year round schedule?

[Beth in Central TX]

I've adopted the definition of a Classical Education from Andrew Kern of the Circe Institute:

 

Classical education is the cultivation of wisdom & virtue (the end) by habituating the heart, nourishing the soul, and training the mind (the form) on truth, goodness, and beauty through a study of the Great Ideas (the matter) by means of the seven liberal arts (the force).

 

The seven liberal arts are grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, music, geometry, and astronomy. Dorothy Sayers was the first to apply the Trivium levels to the stages we read about in TWTM. TWTM gives guidelines on how to approach each level, but a classical education is more than a 4-year history cycle and a corresponding science program. Here's a great article at the Circe website: http://208.112.20.50/definitions%202.shtml#The_Trivium

 

In the years to come, we will not be following a 4-year history cycle, and we have used (and will continue to use) Apologia for science. However, I still consider myself a classical educator because I don't define a classical education by that criteria.

[Cornerstone Classical]

How do the Pros/Cons line up?

 

First of all, aligning science with history can be done by reading scientist biographies in the history timeline, separate from any science curriculum you choose. You can notebook about scientific achievements and technologies in your history curriculum while doing a separate science curriculum. You can do both without too much trouble.

 

Which ideal is better? Chronological 4yr rotations or a curriculum that you like and makes your experience a little more enjoyable without coordinating and planning? Whichever route will be the most enjoyable and will be accomplished is the way to go.

 

I would go for the tools that make your experience better than being a slave to an ideal picture which you cannot find enjoyable materials for. I hope this helps. :)

 

Thanks Jessica for the idea of incorporating some living science books in my history time line to get my dc to see the correlation!:001_smile:

I know you have been doing alot of research with science books lately. Thank you for sharing...

[Cornerstone Classical]

I agree w/ everything you said. All the reasons you mentioned FOR loving Classical Education...I loved. Still do. When I found MFW, it through a wrench in the works for me. :glare: What it came down to for me was REALITY! If I was to have my dc studying history together, one or more of them was NOT going to get that perfect 4yr. rotation anyway! Do you see what I mean? Even SWB herself mentions this dilemna in WTM. Where to start when starting in the middle? Some wise woman on this board reminded me that no matter how many complete rotations my child gets...she/he will still be getting so much more history than any ps student. THat eased my mind.

 

As for Apologia...if you look at what is covered in MFW science I think it does actually match up w/ the rotations somewhat. For us, my plan is to do our own science anyway with MFW simply b/c of where our interests lie. My ultimate suggestion is this...pray about this. I'm willing to bet that if you are "drawn" to MFW...there is a divine reason for that! My heart is "drawn" to so many different curriculums (for subjects that MFW doesn't teach) and I was so confused. I finally had to take a step back and pray. When I sat back down to look at my choices...I was "drawn" to one choice over the others every time. I took that as my answer from God.

 

I'm not telling you which to choose and I hope I haven't confused you any more b/c I know exactly where you are. Classical education is terrific, but to follow any program/model to a "tee" hardly ever works in real life, with real kids, real learning differences, etc. Do you KWIM? We take the parts that we like, the parts that work best for our family and put them to use in our homeschool. MFW closely follows the classical history rotation...just adds in that extra year of Geography (which you said you liked and I do too...we are actually taking a break from the rotation to do ECC next year).

 

Okay, hope I've helped!

 

You have helped.

It sounds like we are COMPLETELY on the same page. You know, I LOVE MFW and all the curriculum they use I want to use. I have been praying about this since the fall and every time I question it "something" keeps drawing me back to MFW again and again. I guess I just need to quit fighting it...:angelsad2:

[Cornerstone Classical]

If I do MFW I will be giving up a three 4-yr rotation.

 

Yes, MFW is not set up exactly the same but it is really close. My oldest son started out studying the Ancients in first grade. We used MFW First Grade. It is an excellent first study of the Ancients. Of course, it focuses on the Bible but we think that is very appropriate for such a young child. When we came to places on our time-line (that comes with MFW) that I wanted to integrate some World History (extra-Biblical, that is), I would just check a book out from the library on that topic. That year, we also read brief books about King Tut, Homer, Alexander the Great, etc. Just enough to intro. the name and get an idea of what that person had done that made him or her noteworthy.

 

After MFW, we spent a few months reading (lightly) about the early church, knights and castles, vikings... just enough to continue the flow of history and provide brief information to build on later. Videos are good for this. Then, we started Adventures in MFW. It starts out with the Vikings.

 

So, even though it was a two year curriculum, I added to it here and there (using mostly library books, not another curriculum) just enough to flesh it out a little bit. By doing so, it felt like we had been through a cycle by the end of Adventures. So, a two (well, two and a half for us) year cycle rather than four.

 

This is how it worked for my oldest son. We are now using Biblioplan. We started out on the Ancients. So, this will be a second cycle for my oldest, but it's the first, obviously, for my youngest. This way, both of them will have a four year cycle coming up.

 

As for ECC, I may go back and do it later on, after this year. I think when they are young, it is very appropriate to take a year off in the cycle to do something like geography.

 

Well, this is how it worked for us. You can flesh MFW out with some World History. MFW likes Apologia, too. You can add certain science topics to MFW as you go, just try to use library books rather than buying another full-fledged, complete, too much to do and the kids don't need that much info. anyway, kind of curriculum.

 

If you like MFW enough to stick with it for the long-haul, you will get two very fleshed out cycles plus the brief intro. when they are younger.

 

It's worked fine for us.

 

Remember, there is more than one way to skin a squirrel. That's what my grandpaw always said.

 

I was thinking about adding some library books for the history the same as you did. Also using this summer and next to squeeze in a light mini rotation before we offically start MFW's rotation.

 

BTW, love you grandfather's quote...

[Cornerstone Classical]

I've adopted the definition of a Classical Education from Andrew Kern of the Circe Institute:

 

Classical education is the cultivation of wisdom & virtue (the end) by habituating the heart, nourishing the soul, and training the mind (the form) on truth, goodness, and beauty through a study of the Great Ideas (the matter) by means of the seven liberal arts (the force).

 

The seven liberal arts are grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, music, geometry, and astronomy. Dorothy Sayers was the first to apply the Trivium levels to the stages we read about in TWTM. TWTM gives guidelines on how to approach each level, but a classical education is more than a 4-year history cycle and a corresponding science program. Here's a great article at the Circe website: http://208.112.20.50/definitions%202.shtml#The_Trivium

 

In the years to come, we will not be following a 4-year history cycle, and we have used (and will continue to use) Apologia for science. However, I still consider myself a classical educator because I don't define a classical education by that criteria.

 

As always, thanks Beth for your wisdom!

[Rebecca]

DEFINITELY STICK WITH THE CURRICULUM THAT YOU LOVE! AND THAT YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY USE!

 

(HA! I write that after finding the curriculum that I LOVE (Living Books) and having to tweak it so much- it is not even the same...oh well...)

 

There is a CD by David Hazell that explains their philosophy and the classical method. You will find more info about it on the MFW boards. I, personally, have never listened to it- but it might help you with the classical education aspect.

 

If you love the curriculum you can always tweak it and fine tune it to make it what you really want...

 

Also, sometimes we LOVE the "idea" of something but the reality doesn't work. Do not be afraid to change your plan after you implement it if it really isn't working.

 

I love the concept of MFW and I tried to make it work for us- but it just doesn't- so matter how much I think it is great- it is not for us! KWIM? But I had to learn that the hard way...

 

By the way- there is no LAW that says you HAVE to do a three time rotation.

If you look at Christine Miller's site and Greenleaf Press you will see perfectly acceptable history rotation options that are still "classical."

 

Hope this helps,

Rebecca

[Cornerstone Classical]

There is a CD by David Hazell that explains their philosophy and the classical method. You will find more info about it on the MFW boards. I, personally, have never listened to it- but it might help you with the classical education aspect.

 

Hope this helps,

Rebecca

 

I am attending Mr. Hazell's lectures in May at my homeschool conference. I'm sure after I hear him I will be glad I've chosen the path I'm on.

[profmom]

First, your kids are 6 & 5, right? (Just making sure I'm not missing anything.)

 

I actually think that MFW does give 3 cycles through history, but the first time through is lighter and more Biblically-focused. Their first time through Ancients focuses on the Old Testament, next is a focus on the New Testament and Jesus (right? Going from memory here.) Adventures is like a quick run through years 3 & 4, which leaves time for the year of geography before starting their 2nd cycle through history with CtG.

 

We started our 2nd time through history with Ancients this year for dd's 5th grade & ds' 3rd grade. She'll have her 2nd time through in grades 5-8 and her 3rd time through in 9th - 12th. My ds, who has always tagged along with her place in the cycle, will go through the cycle in 3rd - 6th, and again in 7th - 10th. So, some would say that his cycles aren't perfect, but others might say that there is a benefit to reading the Ancient works in 11th vs. 9th and the literature from the Middle Ages in 12th grade. I don't see his history schedule as something that needs fixed. (BTW, the cycles will work out "perfectly" for my 3rd child -- 1st grade lines up with the time we'll start Ancients next time in 3 years.)

 

I also don't see the integration of history and science to be a defining trait of classical education -- this seems more like a unit study approach actually. I do like it when we can study science along with our history, but I don't worry about all of it lining up exactly.

 

HTH! I think you can use MFW for history and science and still educate classically. (I didn't use all their other recommendations -- for example, we do languages instead of roots.)