Heather in VA Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I have had several people ask me about this so I decided to blog about it. Hope it answers the questions.... http://3girlsforus.blogspot.com/2010/02/veritas-press-self-paced-history-for.html Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Does the history song just cover that one card? Or... is it a list?? I am using Classical Conversations, which takes the cards out of VP order... I would love it if it was possible to use the VP history... out of order... Carrie:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 This VP history songs are all 32 cards in their order. I never understood why CC switched the order. It was something I really disliked because it took away such a terrific resource for learning the cards as well as studying history using VP outside of CC. So no - you can't use the VP history songs to learn the cards for CC unless you don't care about Memory master. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 But, since CC did.... I have don't understand why VP won't do a "purely chrono order". Especially because besides Classical Schools.... CC is the largest user of VP cards, I think. It wouldn't be that hard. I think it's kinda like a hold out. Which... if that's how they felt, perhaps they should have just not sold to CC in the first place. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 But, since CC did.... I have don't understand why VP won't do a "purely chrono order". Especially because besides Classical Schools.... CC is the largest user of VP cards, I think. It wouldn't be that hard. I think it's kinda like a hold out. Which... if that's how they felt, perhaps they should have just not sold to CC in the first place. :-( Actually VP didn't 'sell' to CC. CC is allowed to resell them just like Rainbow Resource or other reselling companies. They are simply users of the VP cards. VP is school who has written a full history program - not a memory list. Their program does Old Testament and Ancient Egypt. Then they do New Testament with Greece and Rome. It's much more than just their cards - its' a study of those time periods. CC is just a group of people who buy their cards. Why would they revamp their history program for a group who just buys their cards and doesn't intend to use it as and doesn't want a history program? If CC wanted a history timeline with a song to go with it, they could have written one themselves, but VP was easier for them and then they decided they like it better their way. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Yes Heather:-) I agree that you're correct. I just mean that I think... you could use CC order... Veritas Press curriculum in CC order... with a little help from VP. That's all.... I understand they're not going to do it... and I also know that it was a hard decision to have my kids memorize the cards in a different order than the VP>. knowing that it made VP not a good choice as far as history for us... I don't know.. I wish I would have been able to more easily mesh the two... It would have been a nice way to blend a curriculum and the cards... :-) And... I do like purely chronological for actual memory... Wish I could have the best of the 2. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LND1218 Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 It's only a few cards moved. Originally, CC had it done the VP way. But when doing the chronology - it was glaringly obvious it's not chronological. VP is chronological and geographical. We do VP - classes and all, but we do the chronology the CC way. It is actually very easy to mesh the 2 because the timeline moves so fast in CC that it really doesn't matter what order you study it in. Leigh has a great article about that you can read. (We are in year 5 of doing it this way! We love both resources and companies!) Honestly, the VP songs aren't that good of a memory tool - they are too wordy. I like the pure chronology myself. I prefer not having a song with it - chanting is a better memory technique. It wouldn't surprise me to see CC replace the VP cards in the future with a different one. But I can't image it would be soon. And VP wasn't a school until very recently. They were and are a curriculum company. Their school began very recently. Their materials have been used by schools - by schools the owners began even. But they weren't a school. They now have their wonderful online classes that use their curriculum. On the subject of the online self paced class, is it worth the $$. I have seen it. I am intrigued by it but I have some concerns. We take the live class and the discussion is such a huge part of it. I wonder if the self paced is as good as the live. And I wonder if it's worth the $$. I would love to get your feedback - we are trying to decide what to do next year. The first concern I have is I have a child who would see it as a game and just keep clicking the screen without learning anything. That's what she does with all our online things like that. Is it more than fill in the blanks and mult choice that I saw? I worry she will just figure out how to work around the compute without learning it - she has succeed in doing this already with other things even me! My second one is - is there any discussion/questions/accountability on the books? Or is it just reading suggestions. I see it said optional - so I assume not. And I worry that it's too entertaining. It seems to me more like a game than a class. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And finally is it really a classical approach? (Okay I know things don't have to be classical to work or be good, but I really want to stick with a classical approach. And I can't help but wonder.) I just am not sure if it's worth the money for what they will see as just a game. Any more insight you can give would be very helpful. I am hesitant to spend $ on it and then not like it. Although the parts we did do were fun, I am not sure it's what I want for a class. KWIM? Maybe it's better for younger kids? Or maybe for older kids? I should call and find out about the levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leola Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Thank you Heather I needed to read that. I am so glad you like it!! You gave a great review. We are strongly considering this option for our kids. The first concern I have is I have a child who would see it as a game and just keep clicking the screen without learning anything. That's what she does with all our online things like that. Is it more than fill in the blanks and mult choice that I saw? I worry she will just figure out how to work around the compute without learning it - she has succeed in doing this already with other things even me! Sounds like my daughter - she amazes me with how hard she works to avoid the work. Just learned that was faking our chronology review all year. (How on earth she managed that is beyond me!) This is one of my concerns too. I am struggling with this because these classes look good and Veritas Press has a reputation for only producing/selling quality materials. I know I can trust them. But something about these have me concerned... It makes me think of something like ACE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in PA Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 My daughter was one of the test students for the self-paced classes. It is my understanding that the lessons are locked and the students cannot go any further until they have gotten a percentage of the questions correct. I do understand the concern with children who quickly learn how to get the right answres to get through, but have not really retained anything. Those children keep us on our toes.:) It is very entertaining and fun. Like you said, that is not always a bad thing. As to if it is a classical approach or not, I think there are many ideas and thoughts to what a classical approach is. The Grammar years are for just that, Grammar. The general feedback has been that this course has been really great for memorizing the facts. If a child does this everyday of the week, then they are being drilled on the facts everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 I think there are many ideas and thoughts to what a classical approach is. The Grammar years are for just that, Grammar. The general feedback has been that this course has been really great for memorizing the facts. If a child does this everyday of the week, then they are being drilled on the facts everyday. This is definitely the strength of the program. I am using it with an almost 7 year old. In the grammar years it's about learning the facts and becoming familiar with the ideas of history so that later they have those pegs to hang more complex concepts on. This program does very well. In the case of my daughter, because of her learning style, this program does that much better than I ever could. She is really learning her information. The other levels aren't out yet so I don't know if the drills and activities will get more difficult since even though they are usable for all grammar levels, they are in theory matched to a grade level. The complexity of the work does increase in the TM so maybe it will in the self-paced course too. But if not, it's still getting the job done (learning the cards and their information) in a fun way that has my daughter begging for more and pulling books off the shelf to read about 'what the talking Sphinx taught her'. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 It's only a few cards moved. Originally, CC had it done the VP way. But when doing the chronology - it was glaringly obvious it's not chronological. VP is chronological and geographical. We do VP - classes and all, but we do the chronology the CC way. It is actually very easy to mesh the 2 because the timeline moves so fast in CC that it really doesn't matter what order you study it in. Leigh has a great article about that you can read. (We are in year 5 of doing it this way! We love both resources and companies!) Honestly, the VP songs aren't that good of a memory tool - they are too wordy. I like the pure chronology myself. I prefer not having a song with it - chanting is a better memory technique. It wouldn't surprise me to see CC replace the VP cards in the future with a different one. But I can't image it would be soon. And VP wasn't a school until very recently. They were and are a curriculum company. Their school began very recently. Their materials have been used by schools - by schools the owners began even. But they weren't a school. They now have their wonderful online classes that use their curriculum. On the subject of the online self paced class, is it worth the $$. I have seen it. I am intrigued by it but I have some concerns. We take the live class and the discussion is such a huge part of it. I wonder if the self paced is as good as the live. And I wonder if it's worth the $$. I would love to get your feedback - we are trying to decide what to do next year. The first concern I have is I have a child who would see it as a game and just keep clicking the screen without learning anything. That's what she does with all our online things like that. Is it more than fill in the blanks and mult choice that I saw? I worry she will just figure out how to work around the compute without learning it - she has succeed in doing this already with other things even me! My second one is - is there any discussion/questions/accountability on the books? Or is it just reading suggestions. I see it said optional - so I assume not. And I worry that it's too entertaining. It seems to me more like a game than a class. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And finally is it really a classical approach? (Okay I know things don't have to be classical to work or be good, but I really want to stick with a classical approach. And I can't help but wonder.) I just am not sure if it's worth the money for what they will see as just a game. Any more insight you can give would be very helpful. I am hesitant to spend $ on it and then not like it. Although the parts we did do were fun, I am not sure it's what I want for a class. KWIM? Maybe it's better for younger kids? Or maybe for older kids? I should call and find out about the levels. Steph, I'd have to say you probably wouldn't want it. If you don't like the VP card order and don't like the memory song (they start every class with it) and you have something else that's working... Well it doesn't sound like it would be for you. I don't have a problem with something that feels like a game but they are learning, especially for grammar stage history. I think for a child who is trying to work around things and avoid the learning, anything independent is a bad idea until you break that habit. It might be that a fun game-type program would spark her interest, but you'd know best on that. As far as CC goes, I do wish they'd stop using VP cards and do their own. The year I was in CC there was a real current of negative talk about VP and how their card order made no sense, the songs are not good for learning, we do it better, why won't they do it like us and I found it rather distasteful. If you are going to use another company's product to keep you from having to do the work yourself, either accept the differences gracefully, or do it yourself. VP didn't create their program for CC or even with a CC-type approach in mind so I think it's rather unrealistic for CC to expect them to adjust their entire approach because CC likes it better their way. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbysfriend Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 CC has to change the order, according to their web site because otherwise it would constitute stealing the curriculum from VP - there you have it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micandme Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 I'm new to the board here, but had to jump in when I saw this. Great blog post and great post... there ARE lots of questions about the self-paced. I am just loving it too. I love letting someone do this particular work and being able to focus on teaching math, language arts, etc. It's taken a huge load off of me. Of course, my kids love it! I am, though, going to start incorporating the TM sheets for my oldest, who is in 4th grade. My only concern was that the self-paced was all multiple choice (by necessity, I'm sure, so I'm not complaining, just concerned), and maybe too easy for my 4th grader. Well, I also have a 2nd grader and a preK son who are enjoying watching. So.... since this was a trial run/review anyway, for the rest of this course (we started late) and then next fall with NT/G/R, I plan to let DD2 do the online Quizzes/worksheets and tests and have DD1 do the written TM version of worksheets and tests. Hope that makes sense. I'm excited to be here! :) ~Michelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in KS Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 I believe it is inaccurate for cc to claim it is "their" order. There are numbers on the bottom of the VP cards that allow you to place them in strictly chronologic order. You can place them in that order for your timeline. I believe this is the order that cc uses. There are also numbers on the top part of vp's cards. This is the order VP uses with their guides because it allows the students to study events within regions at a time. I can honestly see the reasoning for both ways. Strictly chronological order gives students a timeline. Yet, studying by regions allows a student to see how that region has changed over time and how it has developed into the nation it is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 CC has to change the order, according to their web site because otherwise it would constitute stealing the curriculum from VP - there you have it! Actually CC is not allowed to print the names of each card in order in their guide. That would be stealing the curriculum because then someone could memorize the cards through CC using the CC guide without ever buying the VP cards. There are no rules about learning them in VP order or not, as long as everyone owns their own set of cards. When I was in the tutor training they made it very clear that the change of order was their choice and something they felt was much better than VP. I have no problem with learning something in strictly chronological order. Some people prefer that. If CC prefers do it that way then they could simply say 'we prefer strictly chronological for memorization so we've changed some of the card order'. What bothered me is that in my experience with CC they were actively negative toward VP and their choice of order, touting themselves as better and saying they were planning on encouraging VP to change to do it their way. So if you are going to talk about a product like that you should look for something else instead of continuing a financially beneficial relationship while stabbing them in the back. VP sells their cards at a significant discount to CC. It is not ethical in my opinion to then act in that way. As with anything else in CC, I'm sure a lot of it depends on the training and the group you are in. This was my experience both with our group and our training. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjbeach Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Thank you so much Heather! I'm really hung up on what to do for my DS because he is just not into SOTW anymore. SOTW1 was a hit here with both of my kids but now that my older guy has moved on, it does not maintain his interest... at all (blank stares, no retention, no interest). He's a visual kid so he and I have looked at the online samples together and he has responded to what he has viewed positively! It is pricey, that's my *only* issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micandme Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Thank you so much Heather! I'm really hung up on what to do for my DS because he is just not into SOTW anymore. SOTW1 was a hit here with both of my kids but now that my older guy has moved on, it does not maintain his interest... at all (blank stares, no retention, no interest). He's a visual kid so he and I have looked at the online samples together and he has responded to what he has viewed positively! It is pricey, that's my *only* issue. What I've done is gotten most books from the library or amazon.com. It really doesn't end up being more expensive than doing it "traditionally", I've found, by the time you get all the other stuff. All I have of my own is the TM second-hand, and the cards new. Also, I did "Adam and His Kin" from Amazon (FANTASTIC book, by the way!). Other than that, we paid the $35/year to have a membership to a better library system and we use it A LOT. Now, if I could just get registered for the next class before the end of April and save $50... sigh... don't think we'll be able to swing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjbeach Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 What I've done is gotten most books from the library or amazon.com. It really doesn't end up being more expensive than doing it "traditionally", I've found, by the time you get all the other stuff. All I have of my own is the TM second-hand, and the cards new. Also, I did "Adam and His Kin" from Amazon (FANTASTIC book, by the way!). Other than that, we paid the $35/year to have a membership to a better library system and we use it A LOT. Now, if I could just get registered for the next class before the end of April and save $50... sigh... don't think we'll be able to swing that. Thank you! From what I've read so far it's 200-250 per child and I'd have 2 working on it.. ugh. My understanding is that if you would like to do the self-tests you need to pay the price per child. That's quite a bit for 2 children but it really looks like a great program that my kids would love. The price is my issue unfortunately .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3andme Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I'm not familiar with the VP cards but I liked the sample of the online program. I prefer a secular program but this looks very appealing for history. How much Christian history vs. secular history is there in the Veritas program? Is there anywhere on the VP website where you can see a list of topics covered for each course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncmom2dawters Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Is there a list some where showing how the VP cards can be used with SOTW 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in VA Posted April 24, 2010 Author Share Posted April 24, 2010 I'm not familiar with the VP cards but I liked the sample of the online program. I prefer a secular program but this looks very appealing for history. How much Christian history vs. secular history is there in the Veritas program? Is there anywhere on the VP website where you can see a list of topics covered for each course? It would be very difficult to use the first 3 sets of cards in a secular manner. You could do the American history ones (years 3 and 4) probably. Here's a link that will help you see the card topics. http://resources.veritaspress.com/SL_Resource_Download.asp Scroll down to the 'Other Resources" section and you'll see 5 links for answers. Those answer includes the titles of each card. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micandme Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Thank you! From what I've read so far it's 200-250 per child and I'd have 2 working on it.. ugh. My understanding is that if you would like to do the self-tests you need to pay the price per child. That's quite a bit for 2 children but it really looks like a great program that my kids would love. The price is my issue unfortunately .... Well, that's why we took the TMs and will be using those tests/worksheets for my 9 year old. She's old enough to be able to answer those questions. They can all enjoy and learn from the online part, but only my 7 year old will actually take the tests and quizzes and worksheets online. That way, we only pay for one child. I didn't like that they'd have to go through it separately anyway to record grades, etc. for each child anyway. The whole point for us was that it was something they could watch together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micandme Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Is there a list some where showing how the VP cards can be used with SOTW 4? There is a yahoo group for Veritas press users... "VP Elementary" and on that group there is a file uploaded for VP/SOTW comparisons. I know they've completed it for the first 2 years, but I assume they have it for all four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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