S/O America founded as a Christian nation?

[Heidi]

Ok spycar, I can't resist. Please explain why you think America wasn't founded as a Christian nation?

 

The following is a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson and can be read in full http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff13.txt, scroll down to 291.

 

 

"Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes?

There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and

American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants and House Protestants,

Deists and Atheists ; and " Protestans qui ne croyent rien." Very few however

of several of these species. Nevertheless, all educated in the GENERAL PRINCIPLES Of Christianity; and the general principles of English and American

liberty.

Could my answer be understood by any candid reader or hearer, to recommend to all the others the general principles, institutions, or systems of education of the Roman Catholics ? Or those of the Quakers ? Or those of the Presbyterians ? Or those of the Menonists ? Or those of the Methodists ? Or those of the Moravians ? Or those of the Universalists ? Or those of the Philosophers ? No.

The GENERAL PRINCIPLES On which the fathers achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite, and these principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer.

And what were these GENERAL PRINCIPLES? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united; and the GENERAL PRINCIPLES of English and American liberty, in Which all these young men united, and Which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence."

Edited January 26, 2010 by hmsmith
emphasis

[AngelBee]

:lurk5:

[forty-two]

Well, we *aren't* a "Christian nation", in the sense of having Christianity as our state religion. Certainly, as the quote states, we were founded upon Christian ideals, and the colonies definitely had a predominantly Christian culture (and our country has been culturally Christian for most, if not all, of its history). But our nation was established with no official religion - the only position on religion our founding documents take is to promote freedom of religion. So while I agree that Christian thinking and beliefs were responsible for the founding of our country, I don't believe we are in any official way a "Christian nation".

[Heidi]

Well, we *aren't* a "Christian nation", in the sense of having Christianity as our state religion. Certainly, as the quote states, we were founded upon Christian ideals, and the colonies definitely had a predominantly Christian culture (and our country has been culturally Christian for most, if not all, of its history). But our nation was established with no official religion - the only position on religion our founding documents take is to promote freedom of religion. So while I agree that Christian thinking and beliefs were responsible for the founding of our country, I don't believe we are in any official way a "Christian nation".

 

Sure, I agree. Is that what spy car was referring to?

[kokotg]

If John Adams wanted to be remembered as a guy who helped found America as a Christian nation, he probably shouldn't have gone around signing stuff like the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli (1797), which states:

 

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

http://www.adherents.com/people/pa/John_Adams.html

 

Adams considered himself a Christian, and, as such, I do, too. But it's worth noting that plenty of Christians today wouldn't apply the label to him. He rejected the trinity, questioned the divinity of Christ, and was a universalist.

[forty-two]

Sure, I agree. Is that what spy car was referring to?

Kinda. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but here is what I think he was disagreeing with:

 

Since America was founded upon Christian ideals and by (largely) Christian men, that means that we should privilege Christian morals over other morals. Being a "Christian nation" means Christian beliefs and morals should be the dominant influence on our laws and on our social mores.

 

As a Christian, I do believe that societies that align with natural law will be more successful than those that aren't so aligned. But the argument that, despite our country having been founded on the principle that the government has no right to establish or prohibit religion or the free exercise thereof, Christians have a unique right to impose their morals (that other religions do not) *because* the founders were Christian and we are thus a "Christian nation", is, imo, entirely without merit.

[Heidi]

Kinda. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but here is what I think he was disagreeing with:

 

Since America was founded upon Christian ideals and by (largely) Christian men, that means that we should privilege Christian morals over other morals. Being a "Christian nation" means Christian beliefs and morals should be the dominant influence on our laws and on our social mores.

 

As a Christian, I do believe that societies that align with natural law will be more successful than those that aren't so aligned. But the argument that, despite our country having been founded on the principle that the government has no right to establish or prohibit religion or the free exercise thereof, Christians have a unique right to impose their morals (that other religions do not) *because* the founders were Christian and we are thus a "Christian nation", is, imo, entirely without merit.

 

OHHhhhhh. Forty-two, you're so smart. That makes sense. I thought he was denying that our country was founded on those principles in the first place and I didn't understand how he came to that conclusion.

 

I agree that we don't have a unique right to impose Christian morals on our laws just because we were originally established on Christian principles. I've never even read that, nor has that ever entered my mind. NO ONE has a unique right to impose anything.

However, our laws were created on these principles. The fact that there is a Creator and he has granted us unalienable rights is the foundation of our Constitution. To take that away and say our rights come from elsewhere (ie. the government) is to undermine the very foundation, the very spring of our liberty and freedom.

 

Washington said, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports... Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?"

-later-

"In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness"

 

No, as Christians we don't have a unique right to impose these principles, but as patriots, as freedom-loving citizens, we definitely have the obligation to rally for them.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Here is a good link about Jefferson, one of the primary authors of the constitution, and his thoughts on separation of church and state.

 

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

 

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

 

IMHO I do not think he was alone. There seemed to be a lot of free thinkers back then;)