German dialect vs High or standard German?

[Joan in GE]

Could you native German speakers please help us?

 

We want to plan a trip in Germany, but want to go where the German that my children are learning is spoken. (We know of two exchange students who went to Germany to learn German and ended up in areas with dialects and didn't learn nearly as much).

 

The Wikipedia article completely confused me. I thought my children were learning "high" German. But it says high German is spoken in Switzerland and in Southern Germany. Later on it seems to contradict the first part of the article and says high German is broken into northern and central German.

 

My children are learning the type of German taught in US schools and as far as I can tell, on all the tape/CDROM type of programs...

 

Could one of you please tell me which part of that Wikipedia map we should go to? I would have thought it was the 'aqua blue' or yellow part, but the Wiki article makes it seem like there are other areas with dialects as well.....

 

Thanks,

Joan

Edited December 27, 2009 by Joan in Geneva

[Matryoshka]

I'm not a native German speaker, but I do know that High German is not what's spoken in Switzerland (except as a second lanugage!)

 

The confusion may be that historically High German referred to German spoken where the land was higher (mountains/south?) and Low German to where the land was flat (northern Germany, near the North Sea). In German, that's Plattdeutsch, and still refers to the dialects spoken up near the North Sea (like Frisian). High German has become synonymous with the "standard" German that one learns in school.

 

The main dialects I can think of in Southern Germany are Bavarian (Bayrisch), and Schwäbisch (southwestern Germany), both of which are very much dialects and not standard German. I did live with a family in the Schwäbisch part of Germany for a year, but they were refugees from East Prussia, and spoke High German (with only a Prussian accent), so I only picked up the Schwäbisch accent (from school I guess), but didn't learn the dialect beyond a few phrases.

 

I'll leave it to the natives to talk about other dialects - I've more heard of them than personally experienced them, and I'm also not exactly sure of their geographic locations.

 

I have to say that my family in Germany all speak High German, and High German only - they do not have a dialect they speak at all, going back at least three generations. I'm not sure if that's regional or not, but I don't recall hearing any dialect when visiting there. My family lives up and down the Rhine and some along the Ruhr - Koblenz, Duisburg, Essen, Dortmund, Neuss, Köln, Bonn. They were absolutely horrified at the Schwäbisch accent I picked up when I lived there! :tongue_smilie:

[In The Great White North]

A little further into the article, it claims that modern Standard German is mostly based on Central German (ie. the blue area).

 

The German taught in US schools is Hochdeutsch. We had a "field trip" to Hanover, which was definitely the same dialect, and were given the impression that it was spoken all over the northern half of Germany.

[Joan in GE]

Thanks both of you.

 

Matroyshka, that helps me see that they really should have put that geographical aspect about "high" German more as a historical note if I am understanding you correctly?

 

Thanks for the places where we definitely can expect to find the German we are learning.

 

Maybe should I ask among people who have lived there, which in the Wiki blue/yellow areas of the first map, should we avoid due to pocket dialects (very localized phenomenon)?

[Matryoshka]

Matroyshka, that helps me see that they really should have put that geographical aspect about "high" German more as a historical note if I am understanding you correctly?

 

 

Yes - here's another Wiki article that was linked from the one you cited - it has a good explanation of the term confusion:

 

In German, Standard German is often called Hochdeutsch, a somewhat misleading term since it collides with the linguistic term High German. Hoch ("high") in the term for the standard language refers to "high" in a cultural or educational sense, while in the linguistic term it simply refers to the Geography of Germany, High German of the Southern uplands and the Alps contrasting with Low German spoken in the lowlands stretching towards the North Sea. To avoid this confusion, some refer to Standard German as Standarddeutsch ("standard German"), deutsche Standardsprache ("German standard language"), or if the context of the German language is clear, simply Standardsprache ("standard language"). Traditionally, though, the language spoken in the high mountainous areas of southern Germany is referred to as Oberdeutsch ("Upper German"), while Hochdeutsch remains the common term for the standard language.

[Friederike in Persia]

Hanover is the only place where "Hochdeutsch" is spoken, as it is written, by everybody. But with increased mobility dialects are on the decrease and if you go to big cities you're likely to not have any problems. There might be the odd word here or there, but over all your children should be able to understand what is being said.

People also tend to speak more Standard German, when they realise they are addressing foreigners. My whole family changes a bit, when dh tries to follow the conversation, but altogether his school German from the UK serves him very well.

Rural areas tend to be broader in their dialects. If you were to go to the Schwaebische Alp e.g. you'd hear a lot broader Schwaebisch than going close to Stuttgart. I come from close to Stuttgart and my spoken Germand isn't that far off Standard German.

Finally one more warning about Switzerland. They speak "Switzerdeutsch", which Souther Germans can sort of understand, if they know Schwaebisch or Bayrisch, but most other Germans are lost. A Swiss friend of mine really struggles, cause she wants to teach her kids her native language, but her American dh doesn't understand what she says, even though he has learned German at school. Her kids also find it difficult to read Hochdeutsch, because it's so far removed from their mother's dialect. (As an aside, life is rather expensive in Switzerland as well).

 

Anyway, I hope that was helpful. If you have more questions just ask.

[Joan in GE]

Here I thought Swiss German was bad and was under the illusion that Germany was much better! I'd always felt sorry for people living in the German-speaking part of Switzerland. Yes Friedericke, I feel for your friend.

 

Thank you Matroyshka and Friedericke. You've both added to my understanding...

 

I looked at the other Wiki articles....but that standard German stuff, with different written 'standard' German....I think I get the general picture now and that we should stick to big cities if I want my kids to understand what's being said around them, like at the cash register to other clients, and any other acceptable conversation to listen to. Which leads to another question...

 

I was recently chided by a friend that I should never listen to other people's conversations, which I don't if it is two friends talking discreetly, but is it wrong at the cash register too? (That is a question to both of you) I was told by a German acquaintance that Germans function on a rule based society and that you are expected to know the rules. It seems that one picks up the language by what is spoken around you as well. If I just learned by what was said to me, it would be slow going. Is this an American way of thinking? (I'm not talking about what I would consider eavesdropping...but eg in a bus, where everyone can hear, people should only talk about what they are willing that others know, is that correct in Germany?)

[Friederike in Persia]

I was recently chided by a friend that I should never listen to other people's conversations, which I don't if it is two friends talking discreetly, but is it wrong at the cash register too? (That is a question to both of you) I was told by a German acquaintance that Germans function on a rule based society and that you are expected to know the rules. It seems that one picks up the language by what is spoken around you as well. If I just learned by what was said to me, it would be slow going. Is this an American way of thinking? (I'm not talking about what I would consider eavesdropping...but eg in a bus, where everyone can hear, people should only talk about what they are willing that others know, is that correct in Germany?)

 

I haven't lived in Germany for a while (won't be allowed to vote any more soon :001_huh:), but I think, that listening to others around you it is a great way to find out what is happening, how they think, what makes them tick, what seems polite, what doesn't,....

My parents are very outgoing and will join into those sort of general conversations, that you described. Sometimes that is.

So if I were in your place I would :bigear::bigear::bigear: to your hearts content!!!

 

Oh one more thought, when dh speaks English to them in Germany, EVERYBODY tries to listen to him and the kids, trying to figure out what they are saying :D. Interest in English is huge. I must be the only German mother around that keeps saying "For goodness sake, speak German to me!";) Going off on a tangent, just meant to say that lots of Germans listen to them when we're there.

[In The Great White North]

I was recently chided by a friend that I should never listen to other people's conversations, which I don't if it is two friends talking discreetly, but is it wrong at the cash register too? (That is a question to both of you) I was told by a German acquaintance that Germans function on a rule based society and that you are expected to know the rules. It seems that one picks up the language by what is spoken around you as well. If I just learned by what was said to me, it would be slow going. Is this an American way of thinking? (I'm not talking about what I would consider eavesdropping...but eg in a bus, where everyone can hear, people should only talk about what they are willing that others know, is that correct in Germany?)

 

I don't think this is an American way of thinking either.

[Joan in GE]

...EVERYBODY tries to listen to him and the kids, trying to figure out what they are saying :D.

 

I can really breathe a sigh of relief. I was thinking I may have to wear earplugs.:001_smile: