DS hates WWE--should I switch?

[kokotg]

DS8 just finished WWE2 and we're on week 4 of level 3. It's not going well. Dictation is fine (I usually have to read it several times, but he doesn't get frustrated with it), but the narration has been a mess. I can't put my finger on WHY it's so much harder for him than level 2 was (not that he loved doing level 2, but it wasn't nearly so frustrating for him). I don't know if it's the transition to reading the passages on his own or the difficulty of the passages or what. Today we read a passage about Paul Revere, and he had to look back through the text to answer nearly every single question, and then I had to hold his hand through putting together a summary. He's getting more and more frustrated and miserable.

 

So now what? I'm not sure what this mental block with writing or, more specifically, with narration is. He's a very strong reader (he's reading the sixth Harry Potter book right now, for example), his spelling is good, other language arts stuff is not a problem for him (he's halfway through FLL 4). He also spends hours and hours writing stories outside of school work. He's working on the 5th installment in a very long saga about dragons. And when I have him do narrations in other subjects, he does fairly well. I have him write those himself instead of dictating, and I wonder if that's part of the difference. I wonder if there's just some kind of basic incompatibility between him and WWE. I like it a lot, but maybe it's just not a good fit?

 

Advice, please? Anyone had similar problems, and what did you do about it? Any programs that might work better for him? I'm intrigued by Writing Tales or Classical Writing, but I don't know that he wouldn't run into the same issues with those.

[rafiki]

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[Matryoshka]

Hm. We're right about where you are in WWE3. My dd has also been complaining. But with her I've been wondering if it's the topic of the selections, rather than the difficulty. She hated the one on Paul Revere so much, I let her skip the next week (which was yet more Paul Revere :glare:). She liked the next one about Super-Duper much, much better. I may skip all of the history selections. I have her do plenty of history reading for history and it doesn't line up at all with what's in WWE, and I think the snippets of the history without further context annoy her.

 

She looked suspiciously at next week's selection of Jabberwocky, but I started reciting some of it from memory, then we ended up reading through the whole thing and she thought it was hilarious, so hopefully it won't be a dud.

 

Anyway, since you mentioned your ds has an active imagination and likes fantasy, could some of it be the selections? There seem to be more of that type in WWE3. Did he like those ones on the Spartans and Alexander and such at the end of WWE2? Okay, I let my dd skip those too... its' hard to get her to remember details when she could. not. care. less. about the topic of the selection.

 

Oh, and I've been letting her write her own narrations on day 1 since sometime late in WWE2 when she begged to. I only write/dictate the second narration in the week ('cause if she writes it herself I can't very well dictate any of it back!) I do make her tell me what she's going to write in each sentence before she writes it to make sure it's paced properly and the sentences are strucutred correctly.

[Colleen in NS]

Today we read a passage about Paul Revere, and he had to look back through the text to answer nearly every single question, and then I had to hold his hand through putting together a summary.

 

This is perfectly fine. The passages are longer, and he is not expected to remember every detail. He is just practicing finding answers to the important questions - IOW, figuring out what the important details are. He will have to do that later in life, in longer books, and he will have to look back through the book to do this. So, maybe just reassure him that this is a good thing and that it's OK for him to look back through his reading. Help him to enjoy the process of looking back and talking with you about it and answering the questions in complete sentences, so he doesn't get so uptight about saying his narration afterwards.

 

hth

[kokotg]

 

Anyway, since you mentioned your ds has an active imagination and likes fantasy, could some of it be the selections? There seem to be more of that type in WWE3. Did he like those ones on the Spartans and Alexander and such at the end of WWE2?

 

Hmm...you might be on to something there. Looking back, I think he did have a harder time with the history selections in WWE2. He's not a big history buff, by any means. I'll talk to him about it tomorrow, and we'll see how things go next week when we're finished with Paul Revere. I'll ask him if he'd prefer to write them down himself, too.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Anyway, since you mentioned your ds has an active imagination and likes fantasy, could some of it be the selections?

 

This was my thought too.

 

Hmm...you might be on to something there. Looking back, I think he did have a harder time with the history selections in WWE2. He's not a big history buff, by any means.

 

This was the reason I decided not to use the workbooks. I just use the WWE text as a guide and pick my own passages. You can pick things that you know will draw in your dc.

[Lovedtodeath]

JMHO: Since he doesn't like narration, I think that maybe switching to something else (like IEW style outlining) would be worth a try.

[angela&4boys]

My ds was like yours. We had fairly smooth sailing through WWE 1 and when we started WWE 2, he'd groan. Also like your ds, mine didn't seem to mind the dictation. It was the stories for him. He doesn't care for fiction at all. When I have him narrate history, it comes naturally. We're to the point he doesn't even need me to prompt him; he'll just come and tell me. It was an enjoyment factor for him.

 

As Carmen suggested, IEW is a good option. I went with Intermediate Language Lesson for him and I"m very pleased. It has a gentle mix of dictation, narration, outlining, memorization, and a back-door approach to parts of speech. I found that between this and history, he is narrating enough. I do add dictation and copywork from other sources though to round out his overall language arts.

[kokotg]

Thanks for the ideas everyone! I think we'll stick it out at least for a bit longer and see if things improve when the subject matter is more interesting to him (although I asked him the other day if he thought that was the problem, and he said, "no. I've never liked it, remember?" Umm, yeah, I remember, but you didn't used to CRY about it, either, kid). I don't have a problem with it being challenging for him or with needing to help him through it; but I do worry about how intense his frustration and anger with it has been the past few weeks. I don't want to turn him off of writing, particularly since he DOES enjoy writing in the right contexts.

 

I was looking at IEW the other night....I wonder if that might work well with him--he's a very systematic kind of kid; he likes order, he likes concrete--outlining might appeal to him. He's also very visual, and I wonder if the extent to which WWE relies on auditory stuff is a problem for him.

[Colleen in NS]

I was looking at IEW the other night....I wonder if that might work well with him--he's a very systematic kind of kid; he likes order, he likes concrete--outlining might appeal to him. He's also very visual, and I wonder if the extent to which WWE relies on auditory stuff is a problem for him.

 

But didn't you say that he had to *look* back through the reading to find answers to questions? It's OK to do this. Also, if you stick with WWE, I think you will find that it is very systematic and orderly. And I'd venture to say that outlining might be a bit complicated for an 8yo...unless he is very advanced in his ability to process info. - but if he's having a hard time putting together a summary, I'd think outlining would be hard right now.

[allmaya]

I have taken the blog writing course from Time4Writing and really got a lot out of it. They also offer writing courses with certified teachers for grades 2nd to 12th including essay writing for tests. But here's a real testament to the effectiveness of the program: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-202678020.html

[kokotg]

But didn't you say that he had to *look* back through the reading to find answers to questions? It's OK to do this. Also, if you stick with WWE, I think you will find that it is very systematic and orderly. And I'd venture to say that outlining might be a bit complicated for an 8yo...unless he is very advanced in his ability to process info. - but if he's having a hard time putting together a summary, I'd think outlining would be hard right now.

 

Well, he looks back, then he gets angry and says, "it doesn't say anywhere! It doesn't say anything about that!" ;) Generally speaking he IS advanced in his ability to process info. That's actually kind of why I wonder about WWE perhaps not being a good fit. Writing is the only subject he's not working ahead of grade level in. Which is completely fine, of course, if that's what he needs. But it doesn't seem to fit in with what else I know about him. If I asked him to tell me what happened in the last chapter he read of Harry Potter, he would give me an absolutely beautiful summary--the important plot points and maybe a few interesting details. So there's something about me asking him to do it in this format that's not clicking with him, and it seems to be getting harder instead of easier. I don't know. He's an...interesting child. I think in large part he doesn't like it that there's not one right answer when I ask him to give me a summary; he doesn't want to be "wrong." So I don't know that there's any writing program that would help us get past that, really. But I guess that's what I mean when I say systematic and orderly appeals to him--it's not that I don't see an order at work in the program (this is our second year with it, and my six year old is doing WWE 1 with no problems at all--I think it's swell, and I wish Ari would make things easier and love it, too ;)), but I wonder if that intermediary step of taking what he's read and breaking it down into pieces on paper would be helpful to him. He seems to have a hard time making the connection between the questions I ask him in WWE and the summary I ask him to give.

[rafiki]

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[Lovedtodeath]

 

And I'd venture to say that outlining might be a bit complicated for an 8yo...unless he is very advanced in his ability to process info. - but if he's having a hard time putting together a summary, I'd think outlining would be hard right now.

But IEW has levels written for 8 yo's. There are outlining books for this age as well. I would guess that you can simplify outlining just like anything else. Edited December 5, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[TKDmom]

dd hated WWE, too, so I dropped it. Looking back, I think it might have worked better if I hadn't been trying so hard to get her to give the "right" answer. You might try dropping the script and see if things improve for you when you interact a little more naturally with ds. Just a thought.

Edited December 6, 2009 by bonniebeth4

[Lovedtodeath]

I do agree with that Bonnie. DD does not like the comprehension questions, but she can usually do a good summary without them.

[Colleen in NS]

Well, he looks back, then he gets angry and says, "it doesn't say anywhere! It doesn't say anything about that!" ;)

 

f I asked him to tell me what happened in the last chapter he read of Harry Potter, he would give me an absolutely beautiful summary--the important plot points and maybe a few interesting details. So there's something about me asking him to do it in this format that's not clicking with him

 

He seems to have a hard time making the connection between the questions I ask him in WWE and the summary I ask him to give.

 

Ah, I think I understand now (maybe ;)). He's just impatient with the questioning process? Or does he get bored with the reading material (are you using the workbook or just the text with your own selected reading?)? If he's impatient with the questions, then I like this:

 

You might try dropping the script and see if things improve for you when you interact a little more naturally with ds.

 

If he's bored with the reading material (and if you're using the workbook), you might also try picking your own reading material instead. Stuff that is interesting to him, that meets the objectives in WWE.

 

Good luck!:)

[kokotg]

Update: thanks again, everyone....things are going better this week. I was wrong before, we were actually on week 3, so we just started week 4 yesterday (Homer Price, not Paul Revere :)). He read the passage, then we talked about it without following the WWE script, and then I had him write his own narration instead of dictating it to me. It was fine! Good, even! So I don't know which of the tweaks I made caused the change, or if it was the change of subject matter, or what...we'll see how things go over the next few weeks.