Grammar help, please! (cc)

[Chelle in MO]

Here's the deal...referring to Joseph and his brothers in the Bible, I think it's proper to say, "Joseph was loved more than they." I don't think it's grammatically correct to say, "Joseph was loved more than them."

 

The problem is, I don't know how to explain that concept using English grammar rules, and I want to make sure my kids get it straight.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks,

Chelle

[Mrs Mungo]

Here's the deal...referring to Joseph and his brothers in the Bible, I think it's proper to say, "Joseph was loved more than they." I don't think it's grammatically correct to say, "Joseph was loved more than them."

 

The problem is, I don't know how to explain that concept using English grammar rules, and I want to make sure my kids get it straight.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks,

Chelle

 

http://www.onestopenglish.com/section.asp?docid=146352

 

short version:

'They' is used to refer to the subject of a clause. In other words, it usually represents the ‘doers’ of the action described by the verb, and usually refers back to two or more people or things that were mentioned earlier

Them is used to refer to the object of a clause. In other words, it usually represents the group of people or things that have ‘experienced’ the action described by the verb, and refers back to two or more people or things that were mentioned earlier

People are always getting tripped up with passive voice. In this case, it is sort of hedging. If you mean "Their father loved Joseph more" you should just say it. Maybe he had a good reason, they were jerks who left their brother in a hole to die/sold their brother into slavery, after all.

[Tea Time]

Here's the deal...referring to Joseph and his brothers in the Bible, I think it's proper to say, "Joseph was loved more than they." I don't think it's grammatically correct to say, "Joseph was loved more than them."

 

The problem is, I don't know how to explain that concept using English grammar rules, and I want to make sure my kids get it straight.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks,

Chelle

 

I'll take a shot here! Yes, they is correct. The reason this sentence is such a bugger is that it is passive. It would be better to change the sentence:

 

They were loved less than Joseph.

 

If you must keep the passive, then it would be more correct and clear this way:

 

Joseph was loved more than they were loved.

 

It is tempting to use "them" thinking it is the direct object of the verb or an object of a preposition, but it isn't. It becomes clear when you write it this way that "them" would be all wrong!

 

Joseph was loved more than them were loved. :ack2:

 

*********

Oh, yeah! Ms. Mungo has a better alternative sentence. Their father loved Joseph more. Mine was still passive trying to stay close to your sentence - still awkward. Rarely do passive sentences make for strong writing, except when used by brilliant minds. I'll "pass" on the "passive"! Good link she gave, too!

Edited December 1, 2009 by Tea Time

[ekarl2]

Here's the deal...referring to Joseph and his brothers in the Bible, I think it's proper to say, "Joseph was loved more than they." I don't think it's grammatically correct to say, "Joseph was loved more than them."

 

The problem is, I don't know how to explain that concept using English grammar rules, and I want to make sure my kids get it straight.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks,

Chelle

 

This was taken fromn the grammargirl.com web site and I think it's an excellent explination.

 

Than is both a subordinating conjunction, as in She is wiser than I am, and a preposition, as in She is wiser than me.... Since the following verb am is often dropped or “understood,†we regularly hear than I and than me.

So remember, than he and than him are both defensible, but not all grammar mavens feel this way. Therefore, I would avoid the prepositional use in formal settings, such as a research paper or job interview—and I would argue, advertising, but Cadbury obviously feels otherwise. The usage note in The American Heritage Dictionary (4) agrees: “The writer who risks a sentence like Mary is taller than him in formal writing must be prepared to defend the usage against objections of critics.†Unfortunately, defending your grammar during an interview is not the best way to make a good impression.

 

Basically, this is something about which grammarians argue. I tend to be on the subordinating conjunction side ... but others would easily argue that it's a preposition.

 

To me, if you can put a verb after it, "than they are ..." you should use the subjective case.

[Chelle in MO]

Super, you guys! Your replies help a lot! Thank you!

 

Chelle

[angela in ohio]

My argument: When you can make a perfectly good argument for "than" being a prepositions, and the sentence stands on its own, it seems silly to me to worry about adding assumed wording to it. If you mean "Joseph was loved more than they were loved." then I think you should just say that. If not, it is acting as a preposition.

 

You can argue for either "them" or "they," and I would mark either correct on a student's paper.