Raising the bar...

[Nan in Mass]

What I have been working on here at TWTM board this fall is planning out high school for my youngest, and raising the bar a bit to try to make his education more challenging. I've come up with a few things, but I wonder how everyone else does this? What have you done to make one year a little more challenging than the last, or high school more challenging than middle school? I'm wondering about goals, like more why questions, but mostly I'm interested in what you've done to achieve those goals.

-Nan

[momof2boys]

Well let me say that our first and most important goal in educating our two boys is to instill in them a LOVE for the Lord and to equip them to go out into the world and defend their faith with confidence. That being said then there is the academics. With my oldest it has been hit and miss in some areas of his education. For instance, he really could have used more essay writing and research type writing in highschool than he has gotten. This is is last year and I am trying to "shove" all of that into him in one year and well lets just say he is not too motivated to start with so it is difficult. However, we are getting it done albeit slowly. So for my youngest(10th grade) we are really stressing writing, writing and more writing with him his last 3 years of school. He is more motivated than my oldest so it has not been to hard so far. We use a wide variety of writing material to try and keep it interesting.

 

So I guess our two most important goals are the two listed above. Sure we have lots more goals but I would have to say those are the two most important.

 

Gloria

[Jean in Wisc]

What I have been working on here at TWTM board this fall is planning out high school for my youngest, and raising the bar a bit to try to make his education more challenging. I've come up with a few things, but I wonder how everyone else does this? What have you done to make one year a little more challenging than the last, or high school more challenging than middle school? I'm wondering about goals, like more why questions, but mostly I'm interested in what you've done to achieve those goals.

-Nan

 

There is more material to cover in a high school year than in the younger years--each class takes more time, requires more learning. Many of the tests in the younger years were fill in the blank or easier formats, where in high school, I tend towards short essay. 9th grade history tests are short essay questions in the front of the chapter; 10th grade, they not only have to write the short essays but I read them out loud and make them explain anything I have questions about. In English we are doing more and more complex and longer papers. Literature class requires more in-depth ideas and better reasoning in their papers as they get older--going from the book report in grade school to stating a thesis and supporting it in high school.

 

But their senior year, I save a few easy classes so that they can get them done quickly and have time for scholarship essays and college applications--ABeka gegraphy and economics, for example. My kids usually do both of them 1st semester.

[Nan in Mass]

Yes, but how exctly are you shoving it into him?

[lllll]

[Hi Nan. Someone recently asked me something about math. This is part of the pm which I sent to them. It mostly describes how I tried to raise the bar in math a little for our dd's a while back. I realize R&S isn't exactly high school level, but it's the process which really helped our math. I finally decided there isn't one perfect math curr. out there; so it was up to me (& dh) to take what was available and do what we could to make it into what we wanted. This is a brief description of what we came up with. It's been working very well for us.:) Kathy]

 

 

So I would sit at the table with 1-3 kids and their whiteboards. I let them decide how much they wanted to do at a time. Some said stop after 30 min. Some did a lesson or more at a sitting, forgetting about the time, going as fast or as slow as they wanted. I also let them decide whether to do the oral drill from the teacher's books first, or the lesson and then the drill, or etc. They liked this flexibility and I think they began to actually enjoy math at this point (even though all we were doing was pretty much arithmetic ;) (Some were also finishing up Saxon 87 by doing the lessons and giving them to me to check. If they couldn't get a problem, dh or I or one of their brothers would help them. That was the end of Saxon for dd's.)

 

Back at the table with R&S ... I set up the teacher's books on bookstands in front of me while they worked with their student books and whiteboards. This way I could do more than one dd at a time. If I was quizzing one, the other was doing her lesson and keeping a list of her answers in a corner of her white board. When I finished quizzing the one, I would check the other's answers by having her quickly call them out to me. If they hit something they couldn't figure out, they would try it again. If they still couldn't get it after a couple of tries, I would try different things. (Be creative and vary your approach.)

 

If it was a word problem, I would ask them to read it aloud. (Math requires a different kind of reading than things like history and lit. It's slower and more deliberate.) Frequently, it would happen that they had been reading too fast and had misread some small detail; so they would say something like, "Ooooh! I thought it said ____, instead of ____!" Problem solved. If this didn't work, however, I would begin reading it aloud, slowly. Sometimes they would catch the error this way. If these things failed, I would start asking them questions or giving them clues. Sometimes they just weren't familiar with the terminology. And if all this failed, I would take my own little whiteboard and slowly narrate the solution as I worked the problem while they watched. Or I would tell them the answer and ask them to figure out how the book came up with it (work backwards). It even happened that sometimes I couldn't figure out how the book came up with the answer; so I would tell them the answer and say, "How in the world did they get that??", and ask dc to explain it to me. That worked well, too.

 

If it was a simple calculation like 'convert this to that', I would have them do the problem on their board and go through each step with them to find the error. This helped pinpoint consistent errors like forgetting to invert the fraction when dividing by a fraction, so that I could watch for those errors in all their work.

 

Another thing we did involved the problems which were things I was sure they knew pretty good. Here I would ask them to do a few of the hardest ones for the exact answers, and then tell them to estimate the answers for the rest. When they were comfortable with estimating, I increased the difficulty by telling them to estimate as quickly as they could. For example, there are tons of percent problems asking them what percent of this number is that number. Or how much is this percent of this number. I would tell them to go down the column as fast as they could, estimating answers aloud while I called out the exact answer immediately after they called out their estimate. I was surprised to find that some enjoyed this and others were very uncomfortable with it; but they all had to do it.

 

So every week they are assigned 1-2 Russian problems and some algebra from the Allen book. We gather on Friday afternoons for a couple of hours to check all this. First, they pass around their answers for the Russian problems to see how others worked on them. They discuss them as they do this. Then, I pass out the answers (we own a copier) and they discuss it some more. Then, I give them the next problem (or 2-3 if they’re easy) for the next week. Next, we go on to check the algebra. This is fairly easy for them (they're older and have done several logic books), so we only put the problems they've missed on the big whiteboard. More discussion follows. (They all make their own flash cards for algebra and drill on their own time.)

 

To summarize all this, I basically changed how we do and think about math (& logic) in some of the following ways (think ‘discussion and group’):

 

- Stopped sending them off to their rooms and had them sit at the table with me (& sibs) where I could check each problem as they did it … while they still remembered their thought processes. This was also great because if they didn’t understand my explanation, then their sisters could often explain it in a way they could understand.

 

- Began group math times. Here they could compare and discuss the problems. Often they would get into discussions about how the various authors of all the books they have done were presenting the same material in totally different ways. This was very helpful in a zillion ways, some unrelated to math specifically.

 

 

- Ditched pencil and paper for individual whiteboards until we got to Allen’s Algebra and they began having assignments. Also ditched stopwatches, though some decided to time themselves on R&S drills, just for fun.

 

- Increased time for math. It just needed to be done. We had been spending less time on math than we had on any other subject.

 

 

- Told them to make drill tools like flash cards, memory sheets, and summary sheets in math just like they had always done in all their other subjects. They drill on their own time because they’re older now. If they were young, I would drill them to make sure they were getting it.

 

- Realized (& explained to them) that it takes a different kind of reading in math (& logic). Told them to slow down and read very deliberately and stop trying to do it like they do history or GB’s (fast and skimming).

 

 

- Put more emphasis on logic. Increased the time and informed them we would be doing much more than WTM required. We are currently spending every morning from 8-10 finishing up the Suppes’ “First Course in Mathematical Logic†book. Then, we’ll continue on down the list. They’ve also completed the Nance books, TL books, and a few other odds and ends.

 

- Ditched the time limits for finishing a book. Told them to master the material and forget about deadlines, because we have a looong way to go yet in math. Best to make sure they master the early stuff so as to avoid having to backtrack. I can tell how well they’re doing this by listening to the group discussions and other things.

 

 

- Used one base book with the goal of completing it and added in problems from a variety of other authors here and there; so they realize that different authors present the exact same material in different ways; but there is always a basic body of knowledge. I told them to look for that because there is no perfect curriculum/book for math or logic. A combination works best (for us).

 

- Required them to read at least one history of math book at some point. Also, at some point they will all have to read bio’s of math/logic/science peoples. Some of them already do this, but I made it mandatory. It gives them the big picture and helps them realize that math is a work in progress – just like everything else. It also helps understand how math developed ... someone does a bunch of thinking to come up with the theories; usually, at a later time, someone else takes these theories and applies them to the real world; someone else comes up with more theories which build on the original (or corrects them); someone else discovers how to apply the theories; and on and on it goes.

[lllll]

Here's a summary we all came up with last year. Periodically, I gather us all together to discuss what's working, what more is needed, etc. It keeps us accountable, I find. Anyway, 26yos wrote up his own summary of what we decided for science (obviously, most of the process is from WTM). Kind of a 'hindsight' thing; yet he still does most of this. The rest do some version of this. (It was too long for one reply, so I'll have to finish it in a second reply.)

 

DAILY

 

1. Text (principles), 4 days/week

 

 

A. Review memory/voc

B. Read section, take notes & personal notes (see ch.26 WEM)

C. Extract voc, memory, timeline info, & sketch

(index box, notebook: put men, places, theories, etc., into box ‘timeline’ too?)

D. Make outlines (strip charisma/pictures)

E. Quickly research interesting/unclear topics - take notes & place w/B’s notes (1-page concept summaries)

F. Write

1. Summary composition (~2 pages) at end of …?

2. Context pages (of ideas/authors … like hist. context pages?)

G. Choose specific topic, research & summarize

H. discuss (cultural consequences of) ideas

I. Notebook as set up in WTM:

1. Experiments

2. Sketches

3. Reports

4. Dates

5. Memory Work

6. Extra Activities

2. Scientific Method (experiment)

 

 

A. Observation

B. Inquiry - question/problem identified; investigate principles at work or possibly involved

C. Hypothesize solution/result

D. Do experiment

E. Report clear description of phenomenon (precise & rigid) … careful recordkeeping

F. Draw sketches

G. Construct theory of explanation; extend theory into general natural law

H. How to record experiments (as set up in WTM):

1. What question am I trying to answer? (state the question)

2. What could the answer be? (form a hypothesis)

3. How will I test this answer? (the steps of the experiment)

4. What result did I get?

5. Does this agree with the answer I thought I would get? If not, what answer should I give instead?

 

 

PERIODICALLY (projects)

1. Extensive study (history)

 

 

A. Be regularly tracing the history of sciences (encyclo., secondary histories, etc.)

B. Investigate origins & ends of entire fields (motives, inspiration) - why did they even arise? Why in ‘waves’?

C. Research the lives & contemporary history of scientists and their theories - (bio) outlines/research

D. Note especially the human endeavor wrapped up in sciences (bio’s)

E. Do more extensive investigation of evolutions of specific ideas (4-6 wks.)

F. Trace the development of certain technologies, specify their effects on societies (religion, philo., politics …& what they are, or were designed to do)

G. Research the relationships between sciences

 

2. Timelines

 

 

A. Of scientists

B. Of creation of major ideas/theories

 

 

3. Original texts (primary sources …3-4 per yr, ~2wks per bk)

 

 

A. Read & apply “Daily†instructions (context page, timeline, read, write)

B. As is fit, either summarize the text, exegete it, summarize only major sections …

C. Extract direct quotes into a ‘Quote Book’

D. Timetables of History has very thorough lists, dates, and all

 

4. Discussion (of ideas)

 

 

A. Discuss the theories or summarize

 

5. Outside research

 

 

A. Videos, tapes, CD’s, internet

B. Field trips

 

 

GENERALLY

 

1. Exercise research muscle

 

 

A. learn to use libraries, internet

B. Find & use multiple textbooks

C. Encyclopedias

 

2. Master technical aspects

 

 

A. Technical principles, modes & methods

· what is and isn’t done …. Convention

B. Technical voc’s & communication strata

 

3. Exercise

 

 

A. Forceful, fluent self-expression

B. Sharp inquiry into nature of ‘fact’ & origins thereof; general inquisition

C. Careful observation & study

D. Careful partition of theory & fact

E. Concentrate on the use of logical processes - cause/effect, deduction, induction

F. Active reading

G. Exploration, absorption, & memorization

H. Careful outlining - conclusion at hand, supporting facts beneath

I. Clashing of opposing theories/textbooks

 

(Major skills = reading, writing, observing, experimenting, researching, …)

[lllll]

And here's the rest (I hope).

 

 

 

MATERIALS

 

1. Index card boxes

 

 

A. Technical voc

B. Men, places, theories

 

2. Daily notebook

 

 

A. Memory work (chemical tables, etc.)

B. Sketches

C. Outlines

D. Insight notes (theories)

E. Concept summaries

F. Summaries (of section)

G. Text notes

H. Timeline(s) - discoveries, events, births, deaths, etc.

I. Context pages

J. Extracurricular research topic summaries

K. Cultured consequences estimates

L. Scientific method (experimentation … ‘results’)

 

 

3. Periodical notebook

 

A.

1. History/bio works

2, Whole sci/branch summaries

3. Origin & end - research papers

4. Human endeavors summaries

5. Idea-evolution summaries

6. Technology-development summaries & effects

7. Scientific interrelationship studies

 

B. Original text - summary info: see ‘Original Texts’, Periodically, III

 

1. Context pages

2. Notes

3. Compositions

 

C. Outside research (reports)

 

1. Discussion of ideas with others

2. Videos, tapes, CD’s, internet

3. Field trips, trips out into our forests, etc, stream, rocks, plants

4. Extra activities’ summaries

 

 

SCIENTIFIC METHOD

 

1. Observation - must be objective and unbiased

2. Propasal of question or problem - must apply to the observation and be testable

3. Hypothesis - an educated guess that attempts to answer the question or solve the problem

4. Experimentation - (either a or b) In the control treatment all conditions are strictly regulated. In the experimental treatment all but one condition (the variable) is regulated.

a. control treatment

b. experimental treatment

 

5. Theory - a hypothesis having a certain degree of probability

6. Natural law - a theory shown to be valid on a universal scale

 

 

Excellent article on the “experimental method†in the brown encyclopedia. (1940's Encyclopedia Britannica)

[JennW in SoCal]

I have to remind myself that higher goals are what we are building towards, and are the end result, not the starting place.

 

My younger ds is more academic than my oldest, so I am giving him more work, deeper and more challenging material, and I'm pushing for more output. But once in a while I am struck by just how much of a 14 year old is still is, and I have to reign in my enthusiasm and accept him as still a young teen who doesn't yet experience literature on a deep level -- themes of mortality just don't resonate with him the way they do with me! He reads so much, and we love sharing and discussing books with each other that it surprised me that the Iliad and Professor Vandiver's lectures didn't engage him more. Achilles was still an annoying whiner and being assigned an essay on the book was a final insult. He can suck it up and write a good essay, but studying the Iliad was not the meaningful exercise I had imagined!

 

The recent threads you've started, Nan, got me questioning how well I'm handling higher math for my youngest. I am going to continue plugging away with the Geometry we have, but because he loves logic puzzles I picked up some math and logic puzzle books from Dover. It's the thinking and problem solving that matters, right?!! I don't know how to raise the bar in Algebra II as I was barely able to reach the basic bar level in Algebra I. It will be time to find the perfect outsourced class next year, I guess.

 

There are some basic study skills that I need to push in order for him to reach the higher goals I have for him. Memorizing vocabulary for a foreign language and for science, note taking when watching lectures. I've always been more interested in fostering a love of learning, and seeing the big picture, and engaging in discussions about topics, but the devil IS in the details, and my youngest needs to figure out how to best master those details for himself.

 

But it is a process, right? He is a growing and maturing teen, and his academics will grow and mature along with him -- I just have to remind myself of that now and again!

[Susan C.]

Hi Nan,

Is this what you mean?......

 

I have one graduated and in college, and a 10th grader. My older is nice to answer my questions of how I did being "on the other side." I was fairly strict with school, but this is where we could have improved:

 

1) more papers (essays and research)- I avoided papers, dreaded when they came up, both kids procrastinate, but in hind sight, ds said I should have insisted. This probably means someone other than me marking the papers, because neither of my kids like me saying anything about their papers...

 

2) more deadlines, less "adding days" to get things finished and strict test days and times - teaches them to push. Example: History is finished by 2:00 Friday, the test will be at 3:00.

 

3) more organization required of the student - I try to encourage not taking a whole day for a subject and for dd to plan her days so all subjects get completed, it doesn't pay to get ahead in one subject at the expense of another. Also, if a paper is coming up, college doesn't give extra time to do the papers, they happen along with regular assignments. So, it is good to learn to plan ahead, even if the paper is happening a few weeks ahead of time (and some papers need to be written over a few weeks to a month or more). Also, with ds in college, the professors will mark up papers ahead of time if you get to them before the "right before deadline" rush.

 

4) more "plowing" - that is what we call it, not the best way to learn, but if you are crunched for time in a class, you need to know how to read boring material quickly, understand it, and do decently on the test. So, for a class or two, I assign a certain amount of pages to be finished in a certain amount of time, and she has to keep up. Sometimes, I catch her reading ahead of time if she feels I gave her too much. Planning ahead - a good skill to have.

 

I don't believe in doing all of my homeschool like this, senior year is the last year to be able to live in a subject and take it on your own terms, but college doesn't allow this, so I feel the need to move dd over to "college mode."

 

HTH!

 

5) more "interpretation" rather than rehashing what we have learned - Ds says he is great with plot summaries, and not so great with papers that deal with his opinion and/or conclusion on what was read. But, he has amnesia from when we homeschooled....heaven and earth could not have been able to make him write about his opinions!! So, for dd - more persuasive and analytical essays (and more reading for me).

[Jenn in CA]

A little simplistic, maybe not what you're looking for-- but each year, I'd like them to be working at least 5 more hours per week than the year before.

 

9th: 25 hrs.

10th: 30 hrs.

11th/12th: 35-40 hrs.

 

Also, ideally: each year has more writing than the year before. This year (2 high schoolers, 10th & 11th) they're writing a 7-8 page research paper.

 

For ex:

9th: mostly 1-2 page papers

10th: monthly 3-4 page papers + 1 5-6 page research

11th: monthly 5 page papers + 1 7-8 page research

 

...something like that.

 

Lastly I'm always looking for the opportunity to introduce college-level texts, such as Spielvogel's Western Civ. That I've found is a good way to raise the bar.

 

Nan, I'd like to know what you have in mind so far.

[Nan in Mass]

So far, my son doesn't even consistantly produce dated, legible work. Sigh. I guess we have no where to go but up.

 

As far as subjects go:

 

My son himself has changed piano around to meet his own goals. This is self-directed. On the one hand, I'm delighted that he is actually self-teaching in something - anything. On the other hand... He quit lessons this year, since he hasn't really gotten anywhere the last few years, and is teaching himself by finding clips on Youtube which show a person's hands playing what he want to learn, watches that a few times, writes and asks them what the chords are, and takes that away and improvises off it. LOL.

 

In math we've just added a little NAM and I've resoved not to skip the problem solvers and challenge problems in NEM, even though he can never solve any of them. Actually, he is doing better with the problem solvers now that I have him reading the problems but not solving them until about a week later. He'll do CC math next year or the year after, hopefully.

 

In French, we've just added a bit of grammar to his French and history, in an effort to make his spelling something other than completely English phonetic.

 

We're struggling in Latin. I can't wait until we get to the point where we can just learn it by reading it. I really need us to be there now because he is very done working in another language by the time we've done his French and history. We've gotten through Latin 1 and Latin 2 and it seems like we should be able to do this, so I'm looking for something easy to read.

 

In writing I'm trying to get him to write something other than a summary.

 

Great books is fine. If he never gets any better at this, I'll be happy. It isn't that he is great, just that he is able to read and think about and discuss classics at a perfectly good level for an adult in our family of engineers.

 

We're ignoring the concept of "higher level" in history. Something has to give. He hates making educated guesses, so I'm working on that just a little bit, using a 6th grade history book (in French).

 

I'm working on getting him to write something other than a summary for writing.

 

In science, I've added proper lab reports and experiment design (on a very simple level) and recruited his father to discuss these with him. I'm also trying to remember to load Science Friday onto my ipod so we can listen to it in the car. These are rather pathetic advances, but they are about all we can deal with at this time. Eventually, he'll try science at the CC. HIs drawing is improving.

 

Hopefully he'll continue to peacewalk. I can't improve on that.

 

And in tech, I'm trying to get him to put things together, not just take things apart, so I've bought a lot of little electronics kits. At least he can use a soldering iron now. Again, far less than I would like to do, but at least he's doing something.

 

Sigh. It doesn't feel like much compared to what he is probably capable of, but on the other hand, he isn't terribly motivated...

 

-nan

[Gwen in VA]

It doesn't feel like much compared to what he is probably capable of, but on the other hand, he isn't terribly motivated...

 

You can challenge. You can provide interesting materials. You can initiate interesting discussions. But ultimately the student needs to step up to the plate. The student needs to not only participate in the learning process but actually own/initiate some of the process.

 

What has helped us with our unmotivated student (who is motivated about many many things but none of his interests involve books!) --

 

1) Helping him figure out his long-term plan. What does he want to do after high school? What does it take for him to get there?

 

2) Reminding him of his goal, and pointing out frequently how what he does day-to-day is related to his achieving that goal.

 

3) Online classes for some select subjects. He does want A's, and he is willing to do work for others that he would balk at if I made the same assignment.

[Jenn in CA]

I tend to approach subjects two ways.

 

1. You need to learn this subject and I will make you.

 

2. Anything you can do in this subject is great, because you're learning just by trying, even if you're not making much "progress."

 

I've found that every subject can't be a #1, so instead I decide which are going to be my #1's and which are my #2's. For us, math and writing are #1, and pretty much everything else is #2.

 

That means for us, writing and math might require a formal curriculum, and more accountability (grading, system of consequences if work isn't done acceptably). The student's motivation in these areas is usually based on the consequences they will receive if they don't do the work. My kids are pretty naturally unmotivated, but they will step it up if I require them to

 

But I can't do that for everything, so (in my mind, but I may not tell them) I'm willing to let them slack off on the other subjects. Or just skip them completely. Time is too short in high school to do many things badly.

 

I also decided that some subjects, if I don't know them well, it's not worth my time to try to "teach" them at a higher level. Not when they still need to learn to write well, to learn time management and study skills for college (my high schoolers are 10th & 11th grades), to remember to change their socks every day. Just kidding, sort of.

 

Anyway, that means I finally let go of Latin. They had comfortably finished Latin 1 and 2 and to do Latin 3 well would not have been a good use of my time. Instead, they're re-reading Latin 1 and 2 materials (they used Lingua Latina).

 

The other subject we don't do in high school is science. They will take it at the community college (in high school ideally, but if not, oh well). If they've got a solid math base, solid reading base, and solid writing base, and can follow directions and keep track of assignments, they will do fine in college science. I am not concerned about high school transcripts. My kids will go to CC then transfer.

 

That's just my opinion, and of course I'm just some mom out there on the Internet. But, I share it in hopes that it will give you some ideas of how to think "outside the box" for high school. You sound like you can teach French and it's important to you. I think what you're doing with French sounds wonderful and certainly the skills will transfer over to other areas. Do it and do it well, and maybe cut yourself some slack in another area or two or more.

 

[Latin side note: Here is a fairly low-stress way to do Latin reading. My son did Caesar last year (end of Latin 2). I had him read it in English first, the whole thing took a couple weeks. Then he read a Latin version without the English nearby. Just read a couple pages each day. Then I had him write a short English summary of each day's Latin reading. It wasn't an ideal way to do Latin, but I put Latin under #2 above. Focus Publishing has many intermediate Latin readers that are very well done and relatively inexpensive.]

[Nan in Mass]

My son and I do the lesson part of his math together, and then we redo any problems that he missed together. That makes for quite a lot of discussion, especially when I go down a dead-end. I think we could definately benefit from adding in a different textbook, but finding time is hard. Math already takes a lion's share of our day - 2 1/2 hours. I wish I could figure out whether I am a bad teacher or my son isn't very fast at math or the materials we are using are not efficient. I feel like he is about the same intelligence in math as I am, but I spent about 1 1/2 hours a day on math and was farther along than he is at his age. Ug.

Thank you for describing your math.

-nan

[Nan in Mass]

My son is struggling to learn to learn from a textbook, too. He's better than his brother at this age, but he still gives many answers that are far from what the author meant. Although I can see why he misinterpreted them when he explains, that won't help him when he gets to college. He also is pretty resistant to the whole study-from-a-textbook process. We'll just keep plugging away at it, I guess. We definately have to work on taking notes. I don't think he's even tried doing it from anything but a book.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I will show this list to my son. Perhaps it will help him to see what I mean by "a better job". Thank you.

[Nan in Mass]

I concluded that The Iliad was written by men for men. I found Achilles a bit much, too, and concluded that The Iliad was written by men for men. I cut out pirate teeshirts and pasted them into my the covers of my book: "Rape, plunder, and pillage!" "The beatings will continue until moral improves!" "The drinking will continue until moral improves!" and so forth.

 

Thank you for the reminder about starting point versus ending point. I'm having trouble finding starting points, too, though, to get us to the ending points. You are right about the details. I think I am having trouble coming up with the details that will give us the end goals.

 

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

This is a good list. Some of these things I hadn't thought of, although I see now that you mention them, that they are things that are tripping up my older one now in college. Thank you.

[Nan in Mass]

He thinks he wants to be an engineer, but he doesn't want to think about his long-term plan at the moment because he is still reeling from having lost two brothers and a friend to college in the last year and a half. That is making it hard to use this as a motivating factor. He sits down at the end of the day after gymnastics and does his math, which can't be easy, and he is happily building little electronics kits and thinking about building interesting musical instruments. How do I get him motivated to improve his study skills and writing, though? He will work at things during our set school hours but (naturally) wants to work on his own projects out of school. This makes it hard to get as much reading done as he would need to do to do more challenging things. I have a really hard time finding the right balance between challenging and overwhelming. He doesn't own/initiate much of the process, at least not the way he does when it involves inventing things or strategy games with millions of little models or six foot bommy knockers, capes, and spell-books. I probably should outsource more. It just seems like unless I find the right level and a very good teacher, it could be a waste of time and money.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I guess I do that but didn't realize I was doing it. Doing it deliberately will make things easier. He can teach himself piano and tech. That has me scrambling to catch up when he cries for help, which is difficult. *I* never had piano lessons and can only read the bass clef by counting up, which isn't exactly fast. And I had an electronics class, but it was an awfully long time ago... I can do the math and it is top priority but I'm not sure I'm doing a good job teaching it. I'm not at all sure I'm good at teaching French. By dint of teaching it, I have now gotten to the point where I can understand it, if the person isn't speaking too fast and I know most of the vocabulary involved, and I can read it fairly well, well enough to understand a 6th grade history book, anyway, but I wish I spoke it better, much, much better. People keep saying, "If you taught him French, how come his French is so much better than yours?" Not exactly complimentary. French is definately a 1, though. So is great books. The other half of history and science seem to be 2's. I'm relatively happy about the science at the moment, because I don't want to do biology in the modern way, and we've figured out a way to fix the output (get him to work on producing better lab reports). Aha... I think that is what has me worried: there is a big gap between his input level and his output level. If the input level is at the point where he isn't bored and uncooperative, the assumed output level is too high and he isn't capable of answering the questions or writing the papers. And here is the tricky bit: if the expected output level is low enough that he can do it, he does a bad job because it is boring or so obvious that he thinks he can do it, even if he can't.

 

Thanks for listening. I now have a new question -how do you get better output?

 

-Nan