Dark Siders, I need your help!

[i.love.lucy]

I posted in the DS social group but that's not active I guess? Anyway no one has responded yet so I thought I'd post in general.

 

Okay, so a little background. Dh and I are new to the Dark Side. We both have been Christians for a long, long time, but are just now finding our way to the Dark Side:D.

 

We are wanting to move on from our church. Tired of the "cool and relevant and casual" atmosphere. It's turning emergent and we are NOT happy with some things we are seeing. It's also a mega-church and I believe we want something smaller. In the 8 years we've been members, we have never even met our pastor in person! And instead of a pseudo rock concert, we'd like a much more reverent worship service in terms of music.

 

We are definitely wanting a Reformed church.

 

I have looked some at Presbyterian (OPC and PCA) and from what I can tell they both subscribe to paedobaptism. We do not and will not. And I don't think we can attend a church and just "agree to disagree" on this. (please, don't start a debate on this, that's not what this thread is about) For this reason, do I rule out Presby?

 

So what other denoms should I look at? Reformed Baptist I assume, and maybe Evangelical Free? Even some non-denom churches can be reformed I'm guessing.

 

I still have SO much reading and research to do, but finding a church is a top priority right now. If you were looking right now, what are the important points that you would want to find agreement on in a Reformed church? We are credobaptist, premil. If it helps, we'd probably attend John MacArthur's church if we could! :tongue_smilie:

 

TIA!!!!

Edited August 22, 2009 by i.love.lucy
removed "dispesational"

[Wendi]

I understand what you mean about paedobaptism. I have found that PCA churches practice paedobaptism, but quite a few of the members don't! And it's not a problem. However, you must subscribe to it in order to become an elder or deacon.

 

Wendi

[Jami]

I'll echo what Wendi said about PCA, you will find members in the PCA who also do not paedobaptise. But if others baptizing their infants or the pastor performing such baptisms makes you uncomfortable, then a Reformed Baptist is probably a good bet. You could look into Sovereign Grace churches, though some of the worship might be more contemporary than you'd prefer, they are also more open to charismatic gifts. The E. Free Church will be very mixed. I've actually never sat under an E. Free pastor who taught on all 5 Doctrines of Grace (5 points), but there are some out there from what I hear. I grew up in the Free Church and found much of the teaching there to be closer to Arminianism and Dispensationalism than Reformed theology. But that may have shifted some in the past 10 or so years. **edited** I re-read your post and see that you're also dispensational/pre-mil--you need to look at churches that call themselves Calvinist probably, more than Reformed. Reformed usually encompasses a more Covenantal (as opposed to Dispensational) view of God's work amongst his people in history.

 

This directory might be helpful:

 

http://www.farese.com/rbcd/usa.htm

Edited August 22, 2009 by Jami

[i.love.lucy]

I'll echo what Wendi said about PCA, you will find members in the PCA who also do not paedobaptise. But if others baptizing their infants or the pastor performing such baptisms makes you uncomfortable, then a Reformed Baptist is probably a good bet. You could look into Sovereign Grace churches, though some of the worship might be more contemporary than you'd prefer, they are also more open to charismatic gifts. The E. Free Church will be very mixed. I've actually never sat under an E. Free pastor who taught on all 5 Doctrines of Grace (5 points), but there are some out there from what I hear. I grew up in the Free Church and found much of the teaching there to be closer to Arminianism and Dispensationalism than Reformed theology. But that may have shifted some in the past 10 or so years. **edited** I re-read your post and see that you're also dispensational/pre-mil--you need to look at churches that call themselves Calvinist probably, more than Reformed. Reformed usually encompasses a more Covenantal (as opposed to Dispensational) view of God's work amongst his people in history.

 

This directory might be helpful:

 

http://www.farese.com/rbcd/usa.htm

 

Okay, this is why I need help! Maybe we're not dispensational. I may have spoken too soon on that. I read that John MacArthur is disp so since we have yet to disagree with him in what we're read, I assumed we were too. So I have scratched that and am no going to Theopedia to see if I can figure out the difference between dispensational and covenental.

[sunflowerlady]

I am right there with you. The difference is that I am willing to learn about the reason they baptize babies and that perhaps it is different than what I have assumed.

 

After some reading, I understand the five points of Calvinist much better. I have not had time to learn about end time view and such.

 

We are visiting one Presbyterian church this Sunday and will eventually visit the Reformed Baptist church I found.

 

I recommend having your dh call and talk to the Pastor. Or, make an appointment and talk to him in person.

 

I am coming to find out that what I have been told that Reformed Christians believe is not necessarily completely accurate.

 

HTH

[i.love.lucy]

Hi Sunflower,

 

I read your recent thread too, and gleaned some valuable insight from it.

 

We have studied why babies are baptised and simply do not find it biblical. I listened to an online talk on URC, took notes, looked up the scripture myself, and simply to not agree with this practice. So there you go. I don't have a problem saying we are definite credobaptists.

 

The next thing I am studying is dispensational/covenantal/new convenant. I think we lean toward new covenant, but am still studying this business of saying the moral law of Moses (Ten Commandments) was not to be adhered to unless it passed through Christ. Which it ultimately did, but still not sure what is the point of saying that that old law is no longer valid for us. I can't agree with some major points of dispensationalism, nor covenantalism, so I am seeing that maybe new covenant is the way to go. Still studying.

 

Oddly, there are a couple of Ev Free churches in our area, but I can't get any idea from their websites about this stuff. There is one (:confused:) Reformed Baptist also that I am guessing we might visit but it's about 30-40 minutes away which is not as desirable. Then there is the option of finding a good ol' Baptist church that is more Calvinistic/Reformed/Founders in it's theology, but it's hard to find them based on what they chose to put on their website.

 

I was thinking about you visiting that church on Sunday and I hope you will post about your experiences! I anxious to hear what you find out.:D

[OnTheBrink]

My church leans toward Calvinism, but not 100% (no paedobaptism, no limited atonement), and is also dispensational. It's a non-denom church, but part of a group called the IFCA. You can check out the IFCA website and see if there's a church near you that might fit your needs. Not every IFCA church is the exact same, but it's a place to start.

 

http://ifca.org/site/cpage.asp?sec_id=140001510&cpage_id=140010164

[Leanna Tomlinson]

I pm'd you about a church.

~

Leanna

[Hillary in KS]

The E. Free Church will be very mixed. I've actually never sat under an E. Free pastor who taught on all 5 Doctrines of Grace (5 points), but there are some out there from what I hear.

 

Ours does, though I believe we are an exception.

 

Dh grew up in the E- Free Church, so we've sort of stayed away from it, since the E-Free church can kind of be a mixed bag. But the one we're attending here is very Calvinistic.

 

We've moved quite a bit, and I've had good luck by going to the website for Master's Seminary, and checking out where their alumni are preaching. Usually there's one close by.

 

If there's not, I call churches and ask 1) if their pastor is an expositional preacher (preaches the entire Word of God, not just topics or series), and 2) if they would consider themselves Calvinistic.

 

HTH!

[sunflowerlady]

Hi Sunflower,

 

I read your recent thread too, and gleaned some valuable insight from it.

 

We have studied why babies are baptised and simply do not find it biblical. I listened to an online talk on URC, took notes, looked up the scripture myself, and simply to not agree with this practice. So there you go. I don't have a problem saying we are definite credobaptists.

 

The next thing I am studying is dispensational/covenantal/new convenant. I think we lean toward new covenant, but am still studying this business of saying the moral law of Moses (Ten Commandments) was not to be adhered to unless it passed through Christ. Which it ultimately did, but still not sure what is the point of saying that that old law is no longer valid for us. I can't agree with some major points of dispensationalism, nor covenantalism, so I am seeing that maybe new covenant is the way to go. Still studying.

 

Oddly, there are a couple of Ev Free churches in our area, but I can't get any idea from their websites about this stuff. There is one (:confused:) Reformed Baptist also that I am guessing we might visit but it's about 30-40 minutes away which is not as desirable. Then there is the option of finding a good ol' Baptist church that is more Calvinistic/Reformed/Founders in it's theology, but it's hard to find them based on what they chose to put on their website.

 

I was thinking about you visiting that church on Sunday and I hope you will post about your experiences! I anxious to hear what you find out.:D

 

 

Can you share what books or sites you are using to study about the covenant, new covenant, dispensational views ? I can't download sermons or such because I am on dial up, but I can read articles or books as long as they are easy to understand. :D You have studies WAY more than I have.

 

I finally understood the 5 points by reading a little book called "The Reformed Faith" by Loraine Boettner. It was written in an easy to understand way.

 

BTW, the Presbyterian church and the Reformed Baptist church are both a 35 to 40 minute drive from us. We are used to being able to get to church within 15 minutes.

[Jami]

Ours does, though I believe we are an exception.

 

Dh grew up in the E- Free Church, so we've sort of stayed away from it, since the E-Free church can kind of be a mixed bag. But the one we're attending here is very Calvinistic.

 

We've moved quite a bit, and I've had good luck by going to the website for Master's Seminary, and checking out where their alumni are preaching. Usually there's one close by.

 

If there's not, I call churches and ask 1) if their pastor is an expositional preacher (preaches the entire Word of God, not just topics or series), and 2) if they would consider themselves Calvinistic.

 

HTH!

 

Am I remember correctly that you're in Nebraska now, Hillary? Can I ask which E. Free you're attending? Though KS would be in the same district that I'm familiar with (Midwest).

[BikeBookBread]

What is going on here???!!! (I mean this in a GOOOD, GOOOD WAY!). I can't believe how many of our friends and acquaintances are wrestling with these very same questions!

 

My DH and I have been listening to podcasts by John MacArthur, The White Horse Inn (Michael Horton et al), John Piper, etc... and just are so ready for meat. We both grew up in Christian homes, went to "good" churches, but still we are seeking more? My blog is chock full of reformed theology links...kind of just happened that way. We're drawn to thinkers and ministers who are willing to challenge us, call us out of wrong behavior.

 

I'm not kidding when I say this at all: it's almost like there is a mini-revival or modern reformation going on! Is it just the circles we are now traveling in? Has this been going on all along and we just missed it?

 

We too move a ton (military) and we do know this: we will be very carefully selecting and prayerfully seeking God's will about the next church we attend. There's nothing "wrong" or un-biblical about our current church, but we just are craving, begging for more for us and our family.

 

Re: the paedobaptism -- it really bothered me at first, but now I understand why they do it; however I still don't really buy into it. But now, I am kind of starting to see that infant dedication is a similar, "evangelicalized" version. Families publically declaring their desire to raise their children in faith (although the paedobaptism is considered a sacrament within Presbyterianism, I think -- correct me if I'm wrong, please!) If we were led to a PCA church, I think I could overlook it, especially considering that we move so often, and my DH would probably never qualify for elder-ship anyway due to the lack of time we get to spend in one place.

[i.love.lucy]

Can you share what books or sites you are using to study about the covenant, new covenant, dispensational views ? I can't download sermons or such because I am on dial up, but I can read articles or books as long as they are easy to understand. :D You have studies WAY more than I have.

 

Well, I have read lots of threads here!;) One of which then pointed me to the URC website that has a section called "lessons". I was able to listen there and learn I guess the basic tenants. That's where I heard the explanation and scripture referenced in support of paedobaptism (if you look under the lessons where it says baptism - it's audio and loooonnnnggg), then I read MacArthurs points against it here. So that helped us decide about that.

 

Someone else mentioned Theopedia, which is like the Wiki of theology. It's searchable, and I found easy to read and understand, also full of links so you can click around but stay within the one website to learn. And it's readable, not downloading tons of audio and video. That's where I could search for "dispensationalism" and learn about it and it would then link to "covenantalism", etc. They kind of compare these theologies side by side and mention the big names so you kind of get an idea of who is who.

 

Then there's the Center for Reformed Theology. Lots more to learn there.

 

I have listened and read on White Horse Inn, Bible Bulletin Board, The Spurgeon Archive.

 

I have a HUGE list of books, but I can't really afford to buy much right now so I am relying on Mr. WW Internets to help me learn. DH and I also banter back and forth during the day while he's at work. He and I are big fans of The Wretched radio show and The Way of the Master too.

 

Hope that helps. I have also been googling lots of churches and will click on their "what we believe" links up to their associational level, so I have read a lot on the OPC and PCA websites too.

 

I'm having FUN learning about theology from all these old dead guys.:confused: What's going on here???:D

[i.love.lucy]

What is going on here???!!! (I mean this in a GOOOD, GOOOD WAY!). I can't believe how many of our friends and acquaintances are wrestling with these very same questions!

 

My DH and I have been listening to podcasts by John MacArthur, The White Horse Inn (Michael Horton et al), John Piper, etc... and just are so ready for meat. We both grew up in Christian homes, went to "good" churches, but still we are seeking more? My blog is chock full of reformed theology links...kind of just happened that way. We're drawn to thinkers and ministers who are willing to challenge us, call us out of wrong behavior.

 

I'm not kidding when I say this at all: it's almost like there is a mini-revival or modern reformation going on! Is it just the circles we are now traveling in? Has this been going on all along and we just missed it?

 

We too move a ton (military) and we do know this: we will be very carefully selecting and prayerfully seeking God's will about the next church we attend. There's nothing "wrong" or un-biblical about our current church, but we just are craving, begging for more for us and our family.

 

Re: the paedobaptism -- it really bothered me at first, but now I understand why they do it; however I still don't really buy into it. But now, I am kind of starting to see that infant dedication is a similar, "evangelicalized" version. Families publically declaring their desire to raise their children in faith (although the paedobaptism is considered a sacrament within Presbyterianism, I think -- correct me if I'm wrong, please!) If we were led to a PCA church, I think I could overlook it, especially considering that we move so often, and my DH would probably never qualify for elder-ship anyway due to the lack of time we get to spend in one place.

 

Stephanie, I agree and also just said "what's going on here?" myself! God is doing a mighty work in us, that's what!

 

You know, I think I could easily overlook the infant baptism thing. I do not think DH can.

 

Thanks for you thoughts!!

[i.love.lucy]

My church leans toward Calvinism, but not 100% (no paedobaptism, no limited atonement), and is also dispensational. It's a non-denom church, but part of a group called the IFCA. You can check out the IFCA website and see if there's a church near you that might fit your needs. Not every IFCA church is the exact same, but it's a place to start.

 

http://ifca.org/site/cpage.asp?sec_id=140001510&cpage_id=140010164

 

Gonna come back and check that out when I have more time this afternoon, so thanks!

 

Leanna, I got your pm - THANKS - and will check that out too!!