Is this a common Christian belief?

[tdeveson]

Adam and Eve DID die. They had perfection in paradise forever to look forward but passed on sin and death to us instead.

 

Gotta love the gods -- death and ****ation to an entire species because one woman was disobedient.

[tdeveson]

Well, of course you are right. I think I made it clear that they had to die because of sin...I never said they didn't die. But I meant they should have died immediately, right where they were standing. It was God's mercy that allowed them to live, and humanity to go on, at all.

 

Doesn't seem very merciful to the rest of us that had nothing to do with it.

[Reya]

Is this a common Christian belief? I am a Christian and have never heard this before.

 

 

Depends on how closely the Christian in question reads the Bible. ;-)

 

YES, it is explicitly in Genesis. Most people don't notice.

[Reya]

But Adam & Eve were clothed in animal skins after they sinned and Abel's sacrifice was a lamb, so clearly there was death before Cain killed Abel, and well before the flood.

 

This website argues that scripture in fact supports the idea that there were carnivorous animals in the Garden, because Adam named the animals and gave some of them names that refer to violence, prey, tearing, etc. He contends that the absence of death in the Garden refers only to human death, pointing out that the large animals of the sea, created on the 5th day, would have starved to death if they couldn't eat other animals, and that there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that God transformed a large % of the animals into carnivores after Adam's sin:

 

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/death.html

 

Jackie

 

 

What, huh?

 

Death and killing came in after the Fall and the expulsion from the Garden, according to the Bible. It's implied when God replaces the clothing of leaves with clothing of animal skins--that is, clothing requiring death. All of which was likely before Cain and Abel were born and certainly before Cain and Abel raised food actively, never mind when Cain killed Abel.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Gotta love the gods -- death and ****ation to an entire species because one woman was disobedient.

 

There are reasons that it has happened the way it has. We have a great book entitled What the Bible Really Teaches. It has a great explanation on why it was better for mankind to have this opportunity. If you (or anyone) would like, I will gladly give you the few paragraphs I'm talking about. Or I can tell you how to get the whole book....

 

But...

 

Almost everyone who has ever died due to sin will still have the opportunity of living forever on a paradise earth. The consequence of the original parents' sin is not FOREVER. It's forever for THEM, but for the majority of people who have ever walked, they are simply "sleeping in death," conscious of nothing at all, not thinking or devising or working, etc. They are just "dust." But when the time is right, the majority will have the opportunity of the resurrection. They will have God's truth laid in front of them without all the junk of this system (evil, false teachings, etc). They can choose God's will or not FOR THEMSELVES.

 

And really, this IS how it is naturally in real life. I had my kids at 17 and 20. They most certainly had some tough times because of that. Even if I were a pretty bad parent (don't think I am), they would be dealing with the consequences of my choices. But as teens (and esp when they are adults), the will get to make their own choices. They don't have to be tied down by my teenage pregnancy or if I were a bad parent.

 

Same with mankind. Adam and Eve sinned. A common illustration is that they were cake pans. They were perfect but with sin, became dented. No one who ever came out of them could not be dented (sinful). So the consequence of sin is death. But along comes Jesus who knows how to fix cakes giving people the opportunity to not be dented anymore. Only catch is that people have to choose to allow him to undent them. But it'll be easier at that time without Satan and his ilk around to mess things up. Along with not being dented, they can now live forever. Just as my teens can grow past what I may have given them, we'll all be able to grow past what our first parents gave us.

 

Again, there are reasons WHY God allowed suffering for the time, but from the moment it happened, he's had a plan in place so that though we all might have to sit out from recess, we won't be punished forever.

 

Toni, I just read your second post also. Do you ever discipline your kids (not necessarily punishment, but sometimes that makes a better example) and they didn't quite understand at first? Sometimes this is especially true when the lesson is something more long term. God is the perfect parent. He has only our best interest in mind. Sure, he could have done any number of things in the Garden of Eden. But he chose the path he did for a REASON, a reason that will benefit every single one of us (and those who are still "sleeping in death"). Anyway, I offer again those few paragraphs. I am unable to post them on the board (or would), but I will gladly send them if you are interested.

Edited August 13, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Lizzie in Ma]

I was going to post these verses. It's MY belief that in the garden man was to eat herbs, seeds, nuts, fruit etc. After the flood is when man began to eat meat.

 

I was going to post these as well. :)

[HappyGrace]

No argument from me...I'm a Calvinist Dark-sider...:lol:

 

:lol:

[savedbygrace]

Check out Answers in Genesis.

[Dirtroad]

Gotta love the gods -- death and ****ation to an entire species because one woman was disobedient.

 

No, she wasnt' disobedient... she was intrigued with the idea of being GOD herself... Satan tickled her ears with talk of knowing all that God knows. It was bigger than just disobedient.

 

Plus, she was not alone. Who was by her side? Who was not speaking up to protect his helpmate or to discuss the seriousness of the matter? Good old Adam.... letting the girl do the work & him watch... then when confronted he BLAMES GOD for giving him the woman in the first place.

 

Way more complex than general disobedience.;) Sadly, many churches & other relegions have put all the blame on Eve. This si due to an ignorance, looking for someone to blame (as Adam did) OR lack of focused reading of the scriptures!

[Lovedtodeath]

Doesn't seem very merciful to the rest of us that had nothing to do with it.

 

Gotta love the gods -- death and ****ation to an entire species because one woman was disobedient.

Toni, I know it is so hard to accept. I have had a hard time when I have seen suffering.

 

The thing is though, that once Adam and Eve (both of them, not just one woman, just a friendly note...) sinned and the Devil questioned God's judgement, something had to be done. The world would be violent and full of corruption because there would be no reason for anyone to obey perfect morals and standards. (The way it is now.) For the ones who would wish to do so, they are surrounded by those who don't. It just won't work. By putting a plan in place to show everyone how badly we can botch things up without perfectly obeying God, the way is shown to fix mankind's problems. And that will happen in the right time. Coming to understand this takes a lot of help and faith and personally, I have to revisit this subject often along with studying justice as it pertains to Jehovah God's personality.

 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

Romans 10:13 "For everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved." which is quoting Joel 2:32 "And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will get away safe"

[Dirtroad]

Well, of course you are right. I think I made it clear that they had to die because of sin...I never said they didn't die. But I meant they should have died immediately, right where they were standing. It was God's mercy that allowed them to live, and humanity to go on, at all.

 

It didnt' matter. The next set of man/woman created would be tempted by the same thing. We don't carry Adam/Eve's sin... we do a great job of making & carrying our very own. They just got the ball rolling. Besides, dying on the spot would have been easier than fighting thorns, hungry creatures, and waiting on rain for crops!

 

Dogs are actually omnivores. Cats are true carnivores. You will make them sick if you try to feed them an omnivorous diet.

 

Broccoli was for humor.... ;) But, honestly... we really don't know b/c I can't ask that old T-Rex or watch him tear up some neighbor for lunch.

 

I was thinking along these lines as well. Look at the T-rex's teeth. How could he eat an apple with them?:001_huh:

 

I have heard countless vegetarians talk about our teeth being for plants (underdeveloped canines etc). I dont' think teeth are perfect indicators. But... another point... what about ADAPTATION? For those who believe so strongly in animals evolving... adaptation should be considered b/c it is an even simplier concept than actual evolving. So... TREX species could have adapted! Can't rule it out...;)

 

Yes, I am talking about the spilled-blood, heart ceasing to beat kind of death. The death of creatures. Obviously, the plants did indeed die when they were eaten :-)

 

Did you know plants don't actually die (atleast in scripture references)? They wilt (what we would call death of a tree or flower, for ex). They don't die in our terms due to the life that often remains in the roots & new shoots burst forth.... and due to seeds of the fruit that you eat & pass out which generate another plant as it settles into the soil.

[Peek a Boo]

Death means separation. The death we usually think about is when our soul separates from our body. But the other death that God warned Adam and Eve of was when our spirits separate from God. Think of phrases like, "Dead in your sins." Your body isn't dead--but you're dead. What's dead? Your spirit is dead--it's apart from God.

This makes perfect sense. :)

I came across an article mentioning something similar when i was googling yesterday, so i'm glad someone else mentioned it.

 

when Roman 5:12 is talking about death, it could easily be talking about spiritual death: it doesn't necessarily mean that nothing physically died. Animals and plants weren't made in the image of God.

[Hsmomto4]

From the time I was a little girl I always knew that animals didn't eat other animals in the garden and people didn't eat animals till after the flood. All my children were taught that at a young age as well. It is a very common to teach that in the Southern Baptist Church.

[Hsmomto4]

Depends on how closely the Christian in question reads the Bible. ;-)

 

YES, it is explicitly in Genesis. Most people don't notice.

:iagree:

[Dirtroad]

To me, the most unworkable part of the belief that no animal was carnivorous before the Fall is that animals (even humans) are completely constructed in accordance with the food they eat. If a lion ate grass, it would not need the tooth structure it has, the digestive system it has, the musculature it has, the social structure it has and so on. Likewise, if rabbits were not prey they would not need camaflaged coats, speed, sensitivity to the presence of danger, prolifice procreation, large eyes positioned on the sides of the head and so on. It seems utterly ridiculous to me that God did a major overhaul of the inter-relationships of all animals and also had to rework their entire physical structure to fill their new role. That would be very silly.

 

Then you do not believe in adaptation?

[tdeveson]

The thing is though, that once Adam and Eve (both of them, not just one woman, just a friendly note...) sinned and the Devil questioned God's judgement, something had to be done. The world would be violent and full of corruption because there would be no reason for anyone to obey perfect morals and standards.

 

The world IS violent and full of corruption. I guess having ****ed all humanity for all eternity on account of one woman wasn't helpful.

 

The concept of god is not necessary for good morals and standards. Atheists are perfectly capable of having good morals. And if you watch the news at all, you'll agree that god-fearing people are capable of disgraceful, indecent behavior. How many TV preachers have gone down in flames? I don't need to believe in a god to be decent or have perfect morals.

 

The entire story of Adam and Eve and God punishing all of humanity for the "sins" of one woman just doesn't wash. Frankly, when we covered creation myths and I told my son the story of Adam and Even, his question to me was: "Wow! What a mean god. He didn't love his people at all. Why would anyone pray to him?"

Edited August 17, 2009 by tdeveson

[Lovedtodeath]

The thing is though, that once Adam and Eve (both of them, not just one woman, just a friendly note...) sinned and the Devil questioned God's judgement, something had to be done. The world would be violent and full of corruption because there would be no reason for anyone to obey perfect morals and standards. (The way it is now.) For the ones who would wish to do so, they are surrounded by those who don't. It just won't work. By putting a plan in place to show everyone how badly we can botch things up without perfectly obeying God, the way is shown to fix mankind's problems. And that will happen in the right time. Coming to understand this takes a lot of help and faith and personally, I have to revisit this subject often along with studying justice as it pertains to Jehovah God's personality.

 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

Romans 10:13 "For everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved." which is quoting Joel 2:32 "And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will get away safe"

Yes, as I said the world is full of violence and corruption now. There is a plan in place for the future. It takes more than one story to see how justice will be carried out.

[Pamela H in Texas]

The world IS violent and full of corruption. I guess having ****ed all humanity for all eternity on account of one woman wasn't helpful.

 

Two things...I think.

 

1) The fact that the world IS violent and full of corruption (and illness and death and such) is proof that man can't do it on his own or with satan.

 

The few paragraphs I offered to send includes an illustration of a boy disrupting a classroom saying he has a better way to do a math problem. The teacher could have disciplined by cutting him off, telling him to hush, sending him out of the classroom; but had he done so the other students would have wondered if the kid was possibly right and the teacher just didn't want it known. By allowing the student to come up and show his way, there is no question. The teacher can then show why his way was better.

 

Same with God. He allowed the experiment and is doing so FULLY so that no one can later come along and say something like, "well we never tried it like this..."

 

2) Humanity is NOT ****ed for all eternity. This is NOT a Biblical belief despite the fact that most Christians believe it. The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal ****ation. Christ's ransom sacrifice covers even those who have died. They will have the opportunity to be resurrected and choose God's way or not to live.

 

There is a lot involved in these beliefs so I won't expound too much here.

 

It WILL all work out. We just have to wait til the timing is right. Let the natural consequence play out long enough so that we never need to let it play out again. As a parent, I can so understand this. I cannot wait for a time when NO ONE has to suffer. I certainly never want to suffer or watch someone else suffer again, especially after we all attain perfection in paradise!

[Peek a Boo]

The entire story of Adam and Eve and God punishing all of humanity for the "sins" of one woman just doesn't wash. Frankly, when we covered creation myths and I told my son the story of Adam and Even, his question to me was: "Wow! What a mean god. He didn't love his people at all. Why would anyone pray to him?"

 

 

Actually, the fault is placed on Adam --read scripture in context. ;)

 

 

I'm glad your son understands that parents who discipline their kids are mean and don't really love their children. Great lesson.:rolleyes:

[bairnmama]

I was thinking along these lines as well. Look at the T-rex's teeth. How could he eat an apple with them?:001_huh:

 

 

I just had to jump in here on this one. Pardon me if it's already been replied to since I haven't finished reading the rest of the thread.

 

But, look at the panda's teeth. How can it eat bamboo with them? It's teeth are that of a carnivore, yet it eats plants.

[Peek a Boo]

But, look at the panda's teeth. How can it eat bamboo with them? It's teeth are that of a carnivore, yet it eats plants.

 

more accurately, it has teeth of an omnivore [like humans]. The few sharp teeth are for tearing the tough bamboo. there are large flat molars in the back for grinding. Not so w/ T-Rex.