Grammar curr. input needed.

[Sweetpeach]

Hivers,

I think I've got hives due to thinking too hard about grammar/LA/writing.

 

A friend stopped by with CLE; I've flipped through Rod & Staff and I own GWG . . . trying to decide for the fall what we'll use.

 

If anyone here has experience with navigating the results of the Canadian Standardized Test, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I can't exactly determine what needs to be taught for language mechanics v. language expression.

 

I'm trying to decide on a plan that will ensure grammar is sinking in . . . and part of me wanted our grammar portion to be teacher-led. I'm not sure I can wander through Rod & Staff although from what I read here, it's one of the best programs out there.

 

The reason why I love MEP math is because I teach for a half hour and then they do independant work for a half - 40. I'd like to do grammar 3x a week for 10 - 15 minutes of teacher-led time and then 20 minutes of seatwork.

 

What program do I need? CLE looks like independant seat work, and I don't want to get burned again by that.

 

What do you all think?

 

TIA, Tricia

 

Edit: Colleen in NS -- I'm unsure about Rod & Staff but I'll hear you out!

[amtmcm]

I'm kind of bumping this for you since I don't have a knowledgeable recommendation. But one that came to mind is Easy Grammar - doesn't it work the way your describing with some 1-1 teaching and then completing on their own?

 

LLATL is a totally different approach, but I taught it exactly how you described - DD and I discussed for 10 minutes and then she completed the lesson on her own.

[skaterbabs]

We've been using CLE for a little while, and while much of it is independant, it's not so independant that your kids can be let go do it themselves. There is a teacher guide for a very good reason. The teacher is supposed to be involved in every lesson.

 

We're quite pleased with it, and we've used other programs that are more and less independant. CLE is a very good mix, IMO. That said, while some families have the student score their own work (the reason for seperate answer keys and teacher guides in upper grades), I score all work. We too were burned with totally independant programs.:tongue_smilie:

[Mesa]

I just bought easy Grammar and Daily Grams and it looks really good. I have used Abeka, and Rod and Staff. I'm planning on rotating EG and DG with Abeka or R&S every other school year.

I dont know what to recommend for you. I am needing my kids to be a little more independent than they are. I pan on reviewing the TM. Teaching a short l0-15 minute lesson and then turning my kids loose on the workbook page. The daily grams will be done independently. When I teach one grammar lesson to "N" I'll have "C" working on his Daily Gram page, then we will switch. It's sounding pretty easy... I hope it works out well.

[Brindee]

R&S has GREAT Teacher Books! I LOVE them! They help a lot with how to go about teaching, and have answers, and suggestions right there for each lesson, if you so choose. It's NOT hard to navigate with those! We did R&S orally mostly, and some on the white board. They rarely did any writing out of assignments. If they understood it we went over it, but quickly. If they didn't, we spent more time on it. It took us 15-20 minutes a day. With diagramming, I'd assign some sentences to diagram, and they'd do those on the white board (more fun than paper!), then I'd come back and go through it with them. We love R&S! DD wanted to use something else this coming year for a change from R&S, but we still think it's a great program!

[MIch elle]

My oldest ds used R&S E.3-7. My younger ds used R&S E.3-6 and we'll be trying CLE LA 7. I've looked very carefully at CLE LA 7 for a few months now and am ready to sell my R&S English 7 set (I thought that I might use it for grade 8). I really like how CLE LA is laid out BUT R&S E. does have better writing/composition lessons and TM. We use IEW writing so we don't need R&S composition.

[Karen in CO]

I have no experience with Canadian testing, but I own R&S and GWG and don't use either. For writing next year we'll be using WWE3. I really like copywork, dictation and summary for writing in elementary. I'm covering most of grammar with Latin (Lively Latin), but just because we have standardized testing too, I am adding in these books I found called Grammar Practice. Over the years, I have found that grammar in a vaccumm drives me batty so I prefer it in the context of writing or foreign language. I'll keep the plain grammar short and sweet until we get into logic stage and then do JAG if we find we need a grammar boost.

[Colleen in NS]

If anyone here has experience with navigating the results of the Canadian Standardized Test, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I can't exactly determine what needs to be taught for language mechanics v. language expression.

 

I'd like to do grammar 3x a week for 10 - 15 minutes of teacher-led time and then 20 minutes of seatwork.

 

Edit: Colleen in NS -- I'm unsure about Rod & Staff but I'll hear you out!

 

:D I was going to hold back from replying (not wanting to bombard you again), until I saw your note at the bottom.

 

Have you talked with V.F.? Her boys did some type of testing before they went to Africa and apparently did a whiz-bang job. We haven't done this testing yet, but I would like to in a year or two. (I've wanted to bring ds's writing up to speed before then) I'm curious what the test looks like - when you say "language mechanics vs. language expression" it sounds like the diff. between grammar and writing - are you wondering what you should teach so they do well on grammar and writing portions of the test? Would you be willing to show me the test sometime, so I can know what to expect when we do it, or can you tell me about it sometime? I talked to W.E. about it before, but it was a few years ago.

 

Anyway, in my experience, R&S can be done with 10-15 min. teacher time, but the seatwork depends on the child (read: distracted boy here). So that's why I started doing everything orally, which translates into maybe 15-20 min. teacher time. But then it's ALL done. Although, this year, diagraming is getting more involved, so I may have him do that on paper himself, so he knows how to take sentences apart himself.

 

If you want to come out from under that table :D, I still wouldn't mind showing you how I simplify R&S. Or maybe we could put your GWG, my R&S, and your friend's CLE together and figure out a strategy for your choice of book? Same as we used WRTR to help you figure out SWR? Hey, let's have an "English Evening" sometime!:D

[Sweetpeach]

I have no experience with Canadian testing, but I own R&S and GWG and don't use either. For writing next year we'll be using WWE3. I really like copywork, dictation and summary for writing in elementary. I'm covering most of grammar with Latin (Lively Latin), but just because we have standardized testing too, I am adding in these books I found called Grammar Practice. Over the years, I have found that grammar in a vaccumm drives me batty so I prefer it in the context of writing or foreign language. I'll keep the plain grammar short and sweet until we get into logic stage and then do JAG if we find we need a grammar boost.

 

Hi Karen, talk to me about "grammar in a vaccumm" . . . do any programs exist that teach outside the vaccuum. I wonder about KISS grammar - the webpage itself is all over the place, but using real literature seems to make sense to me. It doesn't offend my Charlotte Mason tendencies . . .

 

What is JAG? I should know but it's left me.

 

I'll check out the link you offered as well - I'm reallyl trying not to panic. I can teach grammar; I just don't have the time/energy/money to spend on many grammar curr until we find the right fit.

 

T

[Sweetpeach]

:D I was going to hold back from replying (not wanting to bombard you again), until I saw your note at the bottom.

 

Have you talked with V.F.? Her boys did some type of testing before they went to Africa and apparently did a whiz-bang job. We haven't done this testing yet, but I would like to in a year or two. (I've wanted to bring ds's writing up to speed before then) I'm curious what the test looks like - when you say "language mechanics vs. language expression" it sounds like the diff. between grammar and writing - are you wondering what you should teach so they do well on grammar and writing portions of the test? Would you be willing to show me the test sometime, so I can know what to expect when we do it, or can you tell me about it sometime? I talked to W.E. about it before, but it was a few years ago.

 

Anyway, in my experience, R&S can be done with 10-15 min. teacher time, but the seatwork depends on the child (read: distracted boy here). So that's why I started doing everything orally, which translates into maybe 15-20 min. teacher time. But then it's ALL done. Although, this year, diagraming is getting more involved, so I may have him do that on paper himself, so he knows how to take sentences apart himself.

 

If you want to come out from under that table :D, I still wouldn't mind showing you how I simplify R&S. Or maybe we could put your GWG, my R&S, and your friend's CLE together and figure out a strategy for your choice of book? Same as we used WRTR to help you figure out SWR? Hey, let's have an "English Evening" sometime!:D

 

 

Hey there, I did download a bit with V but her boys didn't really struggle with any parts of it so the conversation kinda ends there.

 

I'm going to call the Miss who administered the test and clarify the scope of each topic . . . she told me that day but all I could see was "Oh My, Daws can't spell, even after two full years of a proper spelling curr . . .".

 

Your WRTR tutorial helped me figure out enough SWR to survive, which pointed me to AAS and in the fall, returning to SWR for Matt. Ah, the tangled webs we weave!

 

xo

T

[Sweetpeach]

My oldest ds used R&S E.3-7. My younger ds used R&S E.3-6 and we'll be trying CLE LA 7. I've looked very carefully at CLE LA 7 for a few months now and am ready to sell my R&S English 7 set (I thought that I might use it for grade 8). I really like how CLE LA is laid out BUT R&S E. does have better writing/composition lessons and TM. We use IEW writing so we don't need R&S composition.

 

What hooked you with CLE?

[Melissa in CA]

This isn't one you have mentioned, but it definitely fits the description of what you are looking for in a grammar program: BJU's Writing & Grammar

 

It would take about 15 minutes of your time to teach it from the TE, and then about 15 minutes or so of independent work for your student. I'm with you in that I'm not sure I like CLE's LA due to the TE and what appears to be a lot of independent work. I really like having a TE that tells me what to teach, how to teach it, etc. Not that I would always need it, but it's nice to have it there when I do. BJU fits the bill nicely for us.

 

I don't know the ages of your children, but I have been using BJU's English for three years, and will be starting our fourth this coming year. My son scored in the 99 percentile for Language Expression, and in the 91 percentile for Language Mechanics just this week. Not perfect, but I think BJU is doing it's job. Again, depending on the grade your are beginning, BJU starts out slow and steady in elementary but really ramps-up in the middle & high school years. In 7th grade it is only a semester course so it can be spread out using it 2-3x a week instead of daily. Also, you don't have to use the writing assignments. I don't often assign them, but I do think they are well done and make the process quite easy in the elementary years. In jr. high/high school an assignment is given and the student does it without hand-holding, but in the elem years the program walks your child through a writing assignment which takes about a week, sometimes longer from start to publish...making writing seems simple to your student.

 

Anyhow, I just wanted to throw it out there for you just in case. It seemed to fit what you are looking for.

[Brindee]

 

This isn't one you have mentioned, but it definitely fits the description of what you are looking for in a grammar program: BJU's Writing & Grammar

Melissa, Have you seen my thread about my BJU 5th Grade W&G? I'm so confused right now! If you have any suggestions after you find the thread I'd certainly appreciate it!

[Karen in CO]

JAG is Junior Analytical Grammar. It is a mastery grammar program taught from the view that if grammar is properly taught as a systematic body of knowledge that it doesn't need endless repetition.

 

I think that English grammar is best learned by using it. This idea was greatly reinforced by watching my ds learn foreign languages. He came to a much deeper understanding of English by studying Japanese, Spanish, French and Italian. He used to amaze me by practicing his Japanese by using it to take notes in Italian class. He explained that translating the grammar and sentence structure rules from one language to another helped him to understand both better.

 

I'll use Latin and writing to teach my girls grammar. I have plans, of course, if they need more grammar as they get older. But for now, I don't plan to have a whole seperate Grammar time. Just like I don't offer Vocabulary or Reading (except to my dd that is learning to read) as isolated subjects.

[MIch elle]

What hooked you with CLE?

 

Workbooks, more modern in style, spelling included, more review & parsing than R&S; less diagramming but still a good amt.

 

I still think R&S English is a great program and English 4 & 5 books are the best! R&S English 6-8 gets rough and my younger ds needs a gentler approach than R&S English 7 with more review.

 

Have you looked at the CLE scope & sequence charts as well as all the samples?

[DawnM]

I love the look/idea of JAG!

 

I bought it used and have looked through it.

 

The only reason I am waiting is because my boys aren't ready for it yet. We also have purchased CLE for LA this year. I had never even heard of CLE before visiting this board this summer!

 

Before this year we used Abeka LA. It is ok until about 4th grade and then it jumps into the deep end without warning! (ie: write a sentence or two and then WHAM, "let's write a research paper!") My oldest couldn't handle that and needed a step by step more gentle approach.

 

Abeka has the pretty colorful pictures though and CLE is pretty plain. So far, my kids have not complained about it, I am just pointing it out.

 

I have never been much of a workbook sort, but apparently my boys are! Sigh. I went ahead and got Bible, LA, and Reading from CLE for this year and am hoping it will help fill in some of the gaps my boys have from our failure at our attemps towards Classical Education. They are not strong writers and copywork and dictation have NOT been our friends! :lol:

 

CLE is very straitforward and the boys seem to pick it up without too much instruction. My oldest is a logical reasoning/math sort and he love diagramming sentences! Who knew???? He just loves categorizing and putting everything it its place.

 

Now, this is a review from someone who has only done CLE for 2 weeks and I haven't even taken out the Teacher's Guide yet, but I am a former English teacher and worked in ps for many years.

 

The other thing I really like about CLE is that they have these laminated grammar cards with key info on them for reference. My boys are using these often and love the idea of a "cheat sheet." I honestly think it helps and the more they familiarize themselves with looking at it several times a week, the more they remember the layout of it and thereby remember the rules and charts.

 

Dawn

 

 

JAG is Junior Analytical Grammar. It is a mastery grammar program taught from the view that if grammar is properly taught as a systematic body of knowledge that it doesn't need endless repetition.

 

I think that English grammar is best learned by using it. This idea was greatly reinforced by watching my ds learn foreign languages. He came to a much deeper understanding of English by studying Japanese, Spanish, French and Italian. He used to amaze me by practicing his Japanese by using it to take notes in Italian class. He explained that translating the grammar and sentence structure rules from one language to another helped him to understand both better.

 

I'll use Latin and writing to teach my girls grammar. I have plans, of course, if they need more grammar as they get older. But for now, I don't plan to have a whole seperate Grammar time. Just like I don't offer Vocabulary or Reading (except to my dd that is learning to read) as isolated subjects.

[Colleen in NS]

Hey there, I did download a bit with V but her boys didn't really struggle with any parts of it so the conversation kinda ends there.

 

Gotcha.

 

I'm going to call the Miss who administered the test and clarify the scope of each topic . . . she told me that day but all I could see was "Oh My, Daws can't spell, even after two full years of a proper spelling curr . . .".

 

If it helps any, dd struggles a lot with spelling, but I don't think it's a problem with what I'm using or how I'm using it, I think it's just that it takes her longer to learn the things involved. I've slowed down and sped up, slowed down and sped up, and tweaked it with her, working at her pace, and she is coming along. Try not to panic.:)

 

(that panic is why I keep telling myself to wait a little longer to do that testing - I fear they would have said something about ds's writing abilities, and I want more time to let him work on his skills - and I would have panicked if they told me!)

 

Your WRTR tutorial helped me figure out enough SWR to survive, which pointed me to AAS and in the fall, returning to SWR for Matt. Ah, the tangled webs we weave!

 

Seems to me you are untangling them. You're a smart cookie, Tricia.

[Melissa in CA]

Melissa, Have you seen my thread about my BJU 5th Grade W&G? I'm so confused right now! If you have any suggestions after you find the thread I'd certainly appreciate it!

 

Hi Brindee,

 

No, I have not seen your thread, and I can't find it either. :confused: Want to send me a link? ;)

[Brindee]

Hi Brindee,

 

No, I have not seen your thread, and I can't find it either. :confused: Want to send me a link? ;)

Sorry, should've done that the first time!

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118500

 

Thanks for looking, even if you can't help this confused soul! ;)