R&S English 4 or 5?

[christielee7278]

Hi ladies!

 

My oldest ds, a rising 6th grader, has had really no formal grammar or writing experience. He was ps'ed until this past year which was basically a transitional year. His ps grammar instruction was beyond lousy...he has trouble with basic sentence structure.

 

I purchased both 4 and 5 used so I could compare the two and I still have no idea which level he needs to be. I have heard that 5 is very rigorous so I thought maybe to start with 4. After looking though both, they seem pretty similiar to me.

 

Which would you suggest? I have no problems with him doing English 4 if that is where he needs to be but I don't want to waste time if he would do just as well in 5.

 

Thank you!!

[jojomojo]

I'd start with 4. If there are parts that are way too easy, just move quickly, do some orally, etc. And if you find him struggling with 4, even starting at 3 would not be a bad thing. If you kept with R&S English through high school, you could still get through 8 - that is a LOT more than most kids get through high school (its certainly more than I ever got!).

 

We are almost in the same situation as you. My dd is in 6th grade this year. We pulled her out at the very end of 4th, so her 5th grade year was a learning experience (for both of us). We are just finishing up R&S 4 and will be working on R&S 5 this year.

 

edited to add..

 

I was thinking about it, and I'm not sure I'd want to be that far behind with writing. So if you start in a lower level for the grammar, you may want to use an additional writing program.

Edited July 26, 2009 by jojomojo

[Rhondabee]

Well, just to confuse you....(hee, hee!).... my 2nd DS just finished R&S-5 after having used 3 and 4, and I frankly thought it was a wasted year grammar and writing-wise. I know there had to be *some* new things, but it seemed like it was mostly review - my ds is not an independent learner, but he did most of it on his own.

 

I really think the big jump is from R&S-5 to R&S-6, with an even bigger jump up to 7, and I would definitely put a 6th grader into R&S-5, not 4.

 

fwiw~

[Brindee]

I would start with Level 4 also. You can move through it as quickly as he gets it. We did mostly oral with English, and it worked out great, so just do it orally and if he gets it, don't make him go through every little thing. However, make sure he doesn't glaze over some things. Give the chapter tests to make sure he's catching on!

[jojomojo]

Well, just to confuse you....(hee, hee!).... my 2nd DS just finished R&S-5 after having used 3 and 4, and I frankly thought it was a wasted year grammar and writing-wise. I know there had to be *some* new things, but it seemed like it was mostly review - my ds is not an independent learner, but he did most of it on his own.

 

I really think the big jump is from R&S-5 to R&S-6, with an even bigger jump up to 7, and I would definitely put a 6th grader into R&S-5, not 4.

 

fwiw~

 

Your son was probably very well prepared for R&S 5 after going through 3 and 4. We tried R&S 5 at the beginning of 5th grade and decided to go down to 4. There is definitely a difference if you don't already have R&S 3 & 4 under the belt.

[Rhondabee]

Your son was probably very well prepared for R&S 5 after going through 3 and 4. We tried R&S 5 at the beginning of 5th grade and decided to go down to 4. There is definitely a difference if you don't already have R&S 3 & 4 under the belt.

 

Well, my older DS did ABeka 5 (in half a year after I pulled him out of public school @ Thanksgiving). I guarantee you he had *NO* experience with grammar (part of why I pulled him out).

 

We did have to stop at times and play games, watch SchoolHouse Rock, etc., but really....

 

WTM recommends starting with the 6th grade book. (The number 5 is a typo - check the titles of the books and the errata page of this main website.) So, actually, the recommendation is to start a 6th grader without prior grammar experience in R&S-6. I don't think starting in 5 is horrible, as 8 is mostly a review grammar-wise, and introduces persuasive essays - which is definitely a high school WTM requirement. But, I really think any average 6th grader could handle R&S-5. (Trust me, my kids seem *below* average compared to many here - LOL!)

 

And, honestly, I can't tell someone to use R&S so far below grade level, and then supplement with a separate writing program. Why not just get a pure grammar program - like Analytical Grammar, or even ABeka, tho' surely there are others - with a completely separate writing program? That just seems simpler to implement to my mind - YMMV.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've used R&S-3 through 8, and don't intend to change.

 

Guess it's really a choice of - are you willing to slow down and fill in gaps with games and other activities when necessary, or are you more comfortable flying through things? I'm the kind who would rather be relaxed and flexible with our schedule, rather than always trying to speed things up to get back "on grade level" - I'd be afraid I'd fly through the very things I went backwards to get.

 

YMMV, IMO, all that jazz~

 

(I can tell I'm gonna regret this one....)

Edited July 26, 2009 by Rhondabee
too much cutting & pasting is hazardous to one's ideas!

[jojomojo]

Well, my older DS did ABeka 5 (in half a year after I pulled him out of public school @ Thanksgiving). I guarantee you he had *NO* experience with grammar (part of why I pulled him out).

 

We did have to stop at times and play games, watch SchoolHouse Rock, etc., but really....

 

...

 

And, honestly, I can't tell someone to use R&S so far below grade level, and then supplement with a separate writing program. Why not just get a pure grammar program - like Analytical Grammar, or even ABeka, tho' surely there are others - with a completely separate writing program? That just seems simpler to implement to my mind - YMMV.

 

A great thing about homeschool is you can customize and do what works :D For me, stopping at times to play games or watch Schoolhouse Rock would totally throw us off. It works better for me to work a level lower, a little more relaxed (relaxed as in lets do this lesson orally today) and still keep learning new material.

 

It also means we can take what we like from different programs :D I really like Classical Writing....but I also really like R&S grammar. So using both works great for us. I would be doing it whether my dd was using R&S 4 or 7.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've used R&S-3 through 8, and don't intend to change.

 

Guess it's really a choice of - are you willing to slow down and fill in gaps with games and other activities when necessary, or are you more comfortable flying through things? I'm the kind who would rather be relaxed and flexible with our schedule, rather than always trying to speed things up to get back "on grade level" - I'd be afraid I'd fly through the very things I went backwards to get.

 

YMMV, IMO, all that jazz~

 

(I can tell I'm gonna regret this one....)

 

I guess that is one thing I see differently. We are working below grade level in R&S, but I don't feel the need to fly through it. Its very relaxed. We just go at a comfortable speed (sometimes it goes quickly because we only need to touch on a topic lightly). I don't worry about getting "on grade level" either. I figure we've got time to get through ALL of the grammar R&S has to offer, so it works for us (and if you take into consideration the public schools here, she is on grade level! lol).

[Mesa]

Well, my older DS did ABeka 5 (in half a year after I pulled him out of public school @ Thanksgiving). I guarantee you he had *NO* experience with grammar (part of why I pulled him out).

 

We did have to stop at times and play games, watch SchoolHouse Rock, etc., but really....

 

WTM recommends starting with the 6th grade book. (The number 5 is a typo - check the titles of the books and the errata page of this main website.) So, actually, the recommendation is to start a 6th grader without prior grammar experience in R&S-6. I don't think starting in 5 is horrible, as 8 is mostly a review grammar-wise, and introduces persuasive essays - which is definitely a high school WTM requirement. But, I really think any average 6th grader could handle R&S-5. (Trust me, my kids seem *below* average compared to many here - LOL!)

 

 

And, honestly, I can't tell someone to use R&S so far below grade level, and then supplement with a separate writing program. Why not just get a pure grammar program - like Analytical Grammar, or even ABeka, tho' surely there are others - with a completely separate writing program? That just seems simpler to implement to my mind - YMMV.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've used R&S-3 through 8, and don't intend to change.

 

Guess it's really a choice of - are you willing to slow down and fill in gaps with games and other activities when necessary, or are you more comfortable flying through things? I'm the kind who would rather be relaxed and flexible with our schedule, rather than always trying to speed things up to get back "on grade level" - I'd be afraid I'd fly through the very things I went backwards to get.

 

YMMV, IMO, all that jazz~

 

(I can tell I'm gonna regret this one....)

 

 

 

Wow Rhondabee, you seem a little defensive there. I think Jojomojo was just offering up what her experience has been and her advice. You could probably have done the same without directing all that towards her.

[amydavis]

I would go with level 5. That's what we did with our dd after pulling her out of ps. The WTM suggested that level for a middle schooler starting in the middle. It said that it was a good wrap-up/review of the previous years. We found it to be plenty of drill, especially with the worksheets, for any snags we hit along the way.

[christielee7278]

Wow. Now I really am confused. :lol:

 

I'll have to think on this some more and read through the books again.

 

thank you for the responses!!

[Rhondabee]

My original post wasn't directed at Jojomojo. Since my original post was to encourage the OP (whom I posted under, btw) that if in her gut she thinks R&S-4 and 5 cover basically the same thing, that at least one veteran user of R&S agrees with her assessment. In fact, one could say Jojomojo was being defensive of *her* position by "attacking" my opinion.

 

The great thing about homeschooling is that we can agree to disagree! Hence, all the YMMV, IMO, etc. in my post.

[christielee7278]

Well, my older DS did ABeka 5 (in half a year after I pulled him out of public school @ Thanksgiving). I guarantee you he had *NO* experience with grammar (part of why I pulled him out).

So your older ds didn't do R&S 3 and 4 before moving on to 5? I think I misread your comment on that. Your younger did do 3 and 4, but your oldest did not, right? And after your older went through 5 and your younger went through 3-5, you consider 5 to be just basically a big review of 3 and 4?

 

Is that right? lol :D The way I worded that looks confusing.

 

Anyway if that is the case, I may just put him in 5 and see how he does. I looked through the lessons in 4 and 5 just to compare and the wording in a couple were basically the same which is why I thought maybe he could handle 5. I worry about the writing exercises more than anything, I guess. I am very strong in grammar myself so I think we could make it through together. Plus I'm not afraid to take a break and work more on one particular area if needed, like you suggested with games and such.

 

I would go with level 5. That's what we did with our dd after pulling her out of ps. The WTM suggested that level for a middle schooler starting in the middle. It said that it was a good wrap-up/review of the previous years. We found it to be plenty of drill, especially with the worksheets, for any snags we hit along the way.

This was my thinking as well. Thank you!!

 

Thanks to all of you who responded!!! I appreciate your input!! My questions have been answered!! =)

[MIch elle]

R&S English 4 or 5 doesn't matter imho which you start with BUT R&S E. 6 AND 7 can be very difficult. So if you start with 4 then you have 2 years to get the basics down, but if you have a bright dc who can memorize all that grammar in one year then 5 maybe the one to start with (the 8 parts of speech are the EASY part of grammar - it's the other stuff - PA, PN, DO, IDO, etc. that gets tricky). :D

[jojomojo]

My original post wasn't directed at Jojomojo. Since my original post was to encourage the OP (whom I posted under, btw) that if in her gut she thinks R&S-4 and 5 cover basically the same thing, that at least one veteran user of R&S agrees with her assessment. In fact, one could say Jojomojo was being defensive of *her* position by "attacking" my opinion.

 

The great thing about homeschooling is that we can agree to disagree! Hence, all the YMMV, IMO, etc. in my post.

 

Well, I guess one could say that....but all I said was that your son was probably well prepared for R&S 5 having gone through 3 & 4. :001_huh: I felt your post was a tad rude (and you acknowledged it could be taken that way by adding "I can tell I'm gonna regret this one...").

 

Anyhoo....

 

Anyway if that is the case, I may just put him in 5 and see how he does. I looked through the lessons in 4 and 5 just to compare and the wording in a couple were basically the same which is why I thought maybe he could handle 5. I worry about the writing exercises more than anything, I guess. I am very strong in grammar myself so I think we could make it through together. Plus I'm not afraid to take a break and work more on one particular area if needed, like you suggested with games and such.

 

 

If you are very strong in grammar, 5 will probably be a good fit. Sadly, my public education did not serve me well in the grammar department :tongue_smilie:

 

R&S also has a few workbooks that will help solidify the basics that might be helpful - http://www.rodandstaffbooks.com/item/129-3/?list=Rod_and_Staff_Remedial_English

[Rhondabee]

So your older ds didn't do R&S 3 and 4 before moving on to 5? I think I misread your comment on that. Your younger did do 3 and 4, but your oldest did not, right? And after your older went through 5 and your younger went through 3-5, you consider 5 to be just basically a big review of 3 and 4?

 

=)

 

Sorry for the confusion - two different boys. I pulled them out of public school when they were in 2nd and 5th. This year they will be in 6th and 9th (my, the time has flown!!!!).

 

So, my oldest went from public school to ABeka 5 (really just the grammar part), and then into R&S 6-8. His younger brother didn't really have "grammar" in 2nd Abeka, and has completed R&S 3-5. The whole thing gets really confusing even to me! It's a big pain to post it every time - maybe we should have a "biography" forum for people to share their stories - LOL!

 

I was thinking a bit more about this, and I think what I would have liked to have been told is that *if* I wanted to follow WTM Methods, and write cross-curricularly using the writing lessons that are in R&S, to stay within a grade level of the child's actual grade. One example I thought of: You won't get to complex/compound sentences until 6th grade in R&S, and yet your 7th grader will likely be *thinking* in complex/compound sentences and will need to know how to punctuate them, and how best to phrase them so that they aren't as confusing as this ridiculously long sentence is turning out to be. R&S is very good at teaching how to write sentences logically, which really helps "up" the level of dc's writing.

 

Best wishes!

 

ETA: In answer to your question, Yes, it is my *personal* belief that 90-95% of R&S-5 merely reviews R&S-4.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Rhondabee
actually answering the question that was asked - sorry!

[Rhondabee]

I felt your post was a tad rude[/url]

 

Likewise...

 

I just was nice enough to ignore the fact that you felt compelled to trash my opinion, which I offered to someone else.

[Brindee]

We tried R&S 5 at the beginning of 5th grade and decided to go down to 4. There is definitely a difference if you don't already have R&S 3 & 4 under the belt.

We did this with our dd as well. She struggles with grammar, and though we tried the 5th grade book at first in 5th grade, it went deeper, sooner, and she was not ready. So we went back to the 4th grade book and had good success!

 

To the OP: So, my conclusion is that it depends on the child! Start in 5th (since that's the way you seem to be leaning), and if he doesn't do well, is struggling a lot, and getting frustrated, you could move back to the 4th grade book easily enough!

 

I noticed, though, that you said you are good in Grammar, so your ds may do very well in the 5th grade book because you know how to help him. With me, that wasn't the case. My family moved a lot when I was growing up, and my grammar knowledge was basically non-existent, so going back a grade helped us, whereas you may very well be easily able to get him over any little bumps he has in his grammar road!

 

Best wishes!