Can you "reform" a bad speller?

[Heather in Neverland]

I was an early reader and a great speller (won our school spelling bee twice). My ds was also reading at a young age and has a tremendous vocabulary so I assumed spelling would come easy for him too.

 

WRONG.

 

Apparently, the two do not go hand-in-hand as I once thought (my bad). We have done several different spelling programs and he is now a rising 6th grader who can read at a college level but could not spell his way out of a paperbag.

 

First, can someone tell me WHY he can read so well (and is great with grammar and languages) but cannot spell?

 

Second, at this stage, what, if anything, can be done?

 

Are some people just born bad spellers and they will always be that way? Should I just be grateful for spell check and move on?

[ElizabethB]

Don't give up! I was a poor speller but a good reader until I started teaching phonics.

 

Try different rule based approaches, I just listed a bunch in Rosie's thread. If he taught some remedial phonics/spelling to a younger child, that would also be very helpful. You learn so much more when you teach.

 

I would try a rule based book combined with Gayle Graham's series, he's old enough to do his own notebook.

 

I recommend my spelling lessons followed by either Spelling Plus by Susan C. Anthony or Spellbound by Elise Rak, they are good programs for an older student. The dictation book may be helpful for Speling Plus if he needs to write them out in sentences.

 

He may also enjoy M.K. Henry's words (purchase at Pro-Ed), my older students really enjoy seeing the Greek and Latin words divided up language of origin.

 

Edit: OK, you asked why. I was taught with just a bit of phonics and mostly whole language. So, I could read fine, but didn't know enough phonics to spell well. I read above grade level in elementary school and also read very fast, but I didn't skim--I read every word, and still do today. Learning phonetic spelling rules and learning the most likely sound/spelling types for each letter and letter combination was very helpful for me. (See my chart in Rosie's thread, the percentages based on the Hanna Study.)

Edited May 30, 2009 by ElizabethB

[Julie in MN]

First, can someone tell me WHY he can read so well (and is great with grammar and languages) but cannot spell?

 

 

Reading & spelling really are different skills. I remember trying to explain that on another board. I'll copy it here, to see if it helps. And yes, I think spelling can click in late even if it doesn't for a long time. I've seen it happen when I've tutored kids over a period of years. Here is my post (copied from here: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1132&p=42001#p42001 )

 

 

...The problem is, knowing how to make letters into sounds is the opposite of knowing how to make sounds into letters. The first one -- sounding out letters -- is easier, because there are only so many ways each letter can sound & eventually you'll hit on a word you recognize.

 

The second one -- deciding which way to spell the sounds -- depends on things like what country the word comes from. For instance, those French folks like to add all the silent consonants, as in "ballet." And in your example of "eigh" words, I believe the silent "gh" comes from countries that actually *spoke* some kind of /gh/ sound. But a kid isn't going to know what country each word comes from.

 

Alas, reading can be done very well with the phonics rules under your belt, but some of spelling has to be done by memorization. It helps to...

 

1. Know all the possible ways to spell a sound

2. Know the most common way(s) to spell a sound (when in doubt, try the most common way)

3. Know any special situations that make a spelling more common (ay is used at the end of a word)

4. Know rules that are affected by nearby letters (such as C followed by e/i/y)

5. Sometimes you can remember related words (tense ... tension)

6. But for the rest, you do have to just memorize things like which particular words spell A with an "ei" rather than "ai" or other spelling.

 

As far as memorization help, Crystal has mentioned that she breaks up some of the Spelling Power words by common spellings, to help the child remember them in their proper spelling group more easily...

[rafiki]

.

[Heather in Neverland]

Reading & spelling really are different skills. I remember trying to explain that on another board. I'll copy it here, to see if it helps. And yes, I think spelling can click in late even if it doesn't for a long time. I've seen it happen when I've tutored kids over a period of years. Here is my post (copied from here: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1132&p=42001#p42001 )

 

 

...The problem is, knowing how to make letters into sounds is the opposite of knowing how to make sounds into letters. The first one -- sounding out letters -- is easier, because there are only so many ways each letter can sound & eventually you'll hit on a word you recognize.

 

The second one -- deciding which way to spell the sounds -- depends on things like what country the word comes from. For instance, those French folks like to add all the silent consonants, as in "ballet." And in your example of "eigh" words, I believe the silent "gh" comes from countries that actually *spoke* some kind of /gh/ sound. But a kid isn't going to know what country each word comes from.

 

Alas, reading can be done very well with the phonics rules under your belt, but some of spelling has to be done by memorization. It helps to...

 

1. Know all the possible ways to spell a sound

2. Know the most common way(s) to spell a sound (when in doubt, try the most common way)

3. Know any special situations that make a spelling more common (ay is used at the end of a word)

4. Know rules that are affected by nearby letters (such as C followed by e/i/y)

5. Sometimes you can remember related words (tense ... tension)

6. But for the rest, you do have to just memorize things like which particular words spell A with an "ei" rather than "ai" or other spelling.

 

As far as memorization help, Crystal has mentioned that she breaks up some of the Spelling Power words by common spellings, to help the child remember them in their proper spelling group more easily...

 

 

This is all really great info. We did the Phonetic Zoo spelling which teaches rules and he could recite the rules but doesn't seem to put them in to use. For instance, he knows that "when two vowels go walking, the first one does the talking." So if he sees the word "team" he knows it is pronounced "teem" and not "tame". But if you say "spell the word TEAM" how would he know to spell it TEAM and not TEEM? Or TEME (since he also knows that an e on the end makes the vowel say its name)?

 

Am I making any sense? The phonics rules help him read well but don't seem to help with spelling.

 

I am simplifying for an example. He CAN spell TEAM. :D But he cannot spell words that are closer to his grade level. I am wondering, since he can spell simple words, if something like Sequential Spelling would help him learn to spell bigger words?

 

Here is a funny for you...the other night we were watching the Spelling Bee finals on TV. So of course our kids were wanting to spell words so they kept asking us for words to spell. My dh says to ds "spell GIRAFFE". Ds starts spelling "G-E-R..." Dh stops him and says no, try again. Ds says "Oh yeah, I forgot the H". Dh and I both started cracking up and so did ds when we told him there is no H is giraffe. :lol:

 

Ds doesn't seem too bothered by his lack of spelling skill but I am, of course. :tongue_smilie:

[ElizabethB]

Do you have "The ABC's and All Their Tricks?" It has the frequency of words by sound spelling pattern based on Hanna's study of the most frequent 17,000 words.

 

These charts come from the study (the actual study, not all the words in The Hanna study are in the book the "The ABC's.") It should be helpful for showing which sound is most often used for which spelling.

 

However, I'm still working on the r words, I miscounted, and there is a rule a just found about whether or not there is a consonant following certain types of r words that I didn't know about when I made the chart.

 

Not all phonics rules are helpful for spelling. But, a lot of older phonics programs also taught rules that are helpful for spelling, these rules are in my lessons, and also there are some in the following book starting on page 43:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6QISAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=spelling%20book&lr=

 

For example, these rules from the above book are helpful for spelling:

 

Rule I. Monosyllables ending with F, L, or S, preceded by a single vowel, double the final consonant; as,

 

muff pass bliss fell

 

Rule III. Monosyllables and roots ending with an acecntca consonant preceded by a single vowel, double the last consonant in their derivatives.

 

Edit: You may also want to get Hanna's "Spelling: Structure and Strategies," it is a great book for explaining different ways to teach spelling, this is the same Hanna that did the 17,000 word study, here's an extended quote from his book and a bit about how I teach spelling:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930501&postcount=18

 

From my chart, re: long e--it is spelled e_e 11% of the time, ee 38% of the time, ea 41% of the time, ie 9% of the time, and ei 1% of the time.

Edited May 30, 2009 by ElizabethB

[nmoira]

 

I am wondering, since he can spell simple words, if something like Sequential Spelling would help him learn to spell bigger words?

It might be worth it to try SS, Megawords or both. They cover the same kinds of patterns for multisyllabic words, but Megawords makes the teaching explicit. There is a teen/adult version of SS that might be worth looking into.

[Heather in Neverland]

Do you have "The ABC's and All Their Tricks?" It has the frequency of words by sound spelling pattern based on Hanna's study of the most frequent 17,000 words.

 

These charts come from the study (the actual study, not all the words in The Hanna study are in the book the "The ABC's.") It should be helpful for showing which sound is most often used for which spelling.

 

However, I'm still working on the r words, I miscounted, and there is a rule a just found about whether or not there is a consonant following certain types of r words that I didn't know about when I made the chart.

 

Not all phonics rules are helpful for spelling. But, a lot of older phonics programs also taught rules that are helpful for spelling, these rules are in my lessons, and also there are some in the following book starting on page 43:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6QISAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=spelling%20book&lr=

 

For example, these rules from the above book are helpful for spelling:

 

Rule I. Monosyllables ending with F, L, or S, preceded by a single vowel, double the final consonant; as,

 

muff pass bliss fell

 

Rule III. Monosyllables and roots ending with an acecntca consonant preceded by a single vowel, double the last consonant in their derivatives.

 

Edit: You may also want to get Hanna's "Spelling: Structure and Strategies," it is a great book for explaining different ways to teach spelling, this is the same Hanna that did the 17,000 word study, here's an extended quote from his book and a bit about how I teach spelling:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930501&postcount=18

 

Wow. I had no idea. No wonder English is so difficult to learn! :D I am going to spend some time looking at this. You know what is weird? I never learned any spelling rules when I was a kid in school except "I before E except after C". Seriously. None. All we did was memorize lists of words. So when I see the rules now, I think "oh, of course. That makes sense." But I never knew WHY they were spelled that way. I wonder if it was just the philosophy of the 70's to teach spelling without rules?

[ElizabethB]

Wow. I had no idea. No wonder English is so difficult to learn! :D I am going to spend some time looking at this. You know what is weird? I never learned any spelling rules when I was a kid in school except "I before E except after C". Seriously. None. All we did was memorize lists of words. So when I see the rules now, I think "oh, of course. That makes sense." But I never knew WHY they were spelled that way. I wonder if it was just the philosophy of the 70's to teach spelling without rules?

 

I "learned" that way, too! But, as I said, it never worked for me! (Although my parents never knew it, we had a computer when I was in 6th grade--a trash 80, so I had spell check from and young age, and I could memorize my words for a week, and I could identify the words from a list, so I scored well on my Iowa tests.)

 

The spelling rules went out the window with the advent of Dick and Jane in the 1930's as part of whole word reading. There was a small attempt to bring them back after the Hanna study, but it didn't amount to much. Some older teachers kept teaching from their old phonics and spelling for a while, but by the 70's, the whole word/no phonetic spelling crowd had pretty much taken over.

 

There are plenty of statistical studies that show about 2 grade levels of spelling improvement with phonics and phonetic spelling, but that doesn't seem to influence any actual curriculum decisions for most schools.

[MerryAtHope]

This is all really great info. We did the Phonetic Zoo spelling which teaches rules and he could recite the rules but doesn't seem to put them in to use. For instance, he knows that "when two vowels go walking, the first one does the talking." So if he sees the word "team" he knows it is pronounced "teem" and not "tame". But if you say "spell the word TEAM" how would he know to spell it TEAM and not TEEM? Or TEME (since he also knows that an e on the end makes the vowel say its name)?

 

There's a few different issues here.

 

First, The "rule" you learned only holds true with 40% of vowel combinations. A rule that's not true 60% of the time is not a rule to me. (Think about the combo OU--that has 4 different sounds, and long O as in four is not the most common one either).

 

I really like All About Spelling, because like the reference book, The ABC's and All Their Tricks, they bring out the rules and generalizations that are truly dependable--most of them 95% of the time or more. A few in AAS and ABC's are only true about 90% of the time--still very dependable.

 

Second, spelling relies both on sight and on sound. You need to know what your choices are for various sounds. For example, my son used to spell the word from, f-o-r-m. Well...that can't be if you pay attention to the sounds in the word. Order matters, and phonograms matter.

 

But for a word like team, you also have to know it looks right. I like how AAS approaches patterns like this. They introduce one pattern at a time (usually the most commonly used one first), and they have a word bank of common words using that pattern for the student to read. So the student gets very familiar with the visual aspect of that word. Then, many lessons after learning a pattern like ee, they learn ea, have a word bank for ea, and get familiar with that one. Finally, they will have a lesson on word-sorting where they sort words into columns depending on which spelling they need to use for the long E sound. They first write the word on scratch paper, and when they think they have it correct, they can put it on the list.

 

A final issue you are dealing with is that writing incorporates a lot of different skills. Kids have to remember what they've learned (or imagine something new), think about what they need to say, how to organize their thoughts, spelling, grammar, mechanics, capitalization, handwriting--all at the same time. For many kids, this doesn't even start to come together until Junior High.

 

I like to separate out writing and editing. On another day I'll have my kids check just for spelling--I have them see if they can identify any possible errors, and correct any they know, and then I help with any they don't know. I try to keep it short & painless, and I don't have them edit every piece. I like to focus on editing more with copywork and dictation exercises, but we do polish some pieces. I use the acronym COPS for editing--capitalization, organization (neatness early on, later on thoughts organized etc...), punctuation, spelling.

 

I definitely think there is hope, and I think if you use a program like AAS that has more reliable rules, that you'll see a difference. I've seen a lot of difference in my kids and blogged about it. Don't give up yet :-).

 

Merry :-)

Edited May 30, 2009 by MerryAtHope

[calandalsmom]

http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Library/DyslexiaReading/Stealth_dyslexia.htm

 

I find this article very very interesting.

[Julie in MN]

But if you say "spell the word TEAM" how would he know to spell it TEAM and not TEEM? Or TEME (since he also knows that an e on the end makes the vowel say its name)?

 

My dh says to ds "spell GIRAFFE". Ds starts spelling "G-E-R..." Dh stops him and says no, try again.

 

That's where the last one comes in --

6. But for the rest, you do have to just memorize things like which particular words spell A with an "ei" rather than "ai" or other spelling.

[swimmermom3]

Heather,

 

Calandalsmom may have a point in posting the article. My ds (14) also reads at college level and can not spell his way out of a paper bag. We use Sequential Spelling. 85% of the time, he misses only a few of the words. Yet, when he hurriedly writes a paper for me, he may miss "when" or "team":DLetters are turned around. At first, I thought his spelling had really improved from when we brought him home from ps. What I'm guessing now is that with maturity, he is learning to hold it together for the "spelling lesson". I'm explaining this poorly, but sometimes it's not just a matter of learning rules. All of our brains are wired differently; not so much better or worse, just differently.

 

You can teach him the spelling rules. However, observe when he has the most trouble. Is it always or is it inconsistent? Can he spell better on paper than he can orally? Is the order of letters backwards? As he matures over the next year, can you see a pattern? Is it changing?

 

Your observations will probably help you decide whether he needs a new spelling program or a new set of skills.

 

Best wishes,

 

Lisa