Thank you!

Thank you! I would like to understand how all of the pieces come together. I was talking to a friend about the NPC. She knows we have saved for the children and they’re saving summer earnings, but her kids are young and haven’t started saving yet. She asked if they’d be better off not saving and I honestly didn’t know. It always seems better to save than not, but I didn’t know how each financial piece affected the final price.

My point with that story is that he said it to us like we were in the same boat. “If she gets into Harvard, it will only cost xyz. These private schools end up costing less than our state schools!†He said it like it was true for both our families, and if I hadn’t known to go put our numbers in, I might have assumed his numbers were also good for us. I guess what I’m saying is that I can understand why so many people are touring colleges they can in no way afford or why they assume they’ll get a lot of aid or why they are confused and in a pickle whem the acceptances and financial aid packages come back. You really have to tune out what you’re hearing from friends and acquaintences and do the research to see what applies in your situation. I don’t think everyone realizes that. I have been doing a lot of research about merit money and where my son should apply. And even doing a lot of research and getting some helpful advice, all I can do is apply to the places I *think* will be affordable and see what comes back. We thankfully have a lot of options - a good CC and some good schools within commuting distance. I am happy. But I’ve found the process confusing and a bit overwhelming.

I don’t mind paying for college. We have saved what we could for our kids, and will do what we can to help them find options we can afford. I just understand why families find the whole process confusing and get funny notions in their heads. If a friend hadn’t told me a few years ago that I better check out college prices, I wouldn’t have known that 4 years of the state school I attended for $16k total (tuition, books, room & board for 4 yrs) cost more than the house we were living in at that time. If the friend who told me Harvard cost less than the state school had said that just one year ago, I would have thought that’s how much the school costs. I wouldn’t have known to go look at the NPC. We live similar lifestyles so I would not have known that was the price for just his family. I would have assumed we were in the same category and that the high prices were for the “wealthy,†not people who had to sacrifice a small emergency fund, college savings for other children, retirement funding, AND get loans to meet the EFC. I have been sharing the info I’ve found with all of my close friends and some acquaintances. A friend of mine whose son is a also junior was talking about the price of sending her oldest to a private Christian college. She said she didn’t have to worry about that with her 2nd because he was going to state schools. I said, “Friend, that’s the same price as our state schools.†She was truly shocked. ETA: Sorry for all the typos!

Yes, there are programs to assist low income families with housing and college costs. You’re right that I don’t find fault with that. Re: your middle paragraph, and this could be where I’m understanding things wrong as I’m new to all of this, but the net price calculator consist of putting in your income and assets in order to determine the price you’re going to pay. How is that not setting a price based on income? I don’t find anything wrong with colleges offering additional aid above and beyond tax payer funded aid. I just wonder why the focus is on offering more of this type of aid (income based) vs. making the price affordable, in general. When a college sets a price for a specific family at 30-40% of income plus a percentage of assets, it typically isn’t affordable. That’s where you families taking on potentially risky loans, etc. I know those loans work out for some, but they can obviously be a tremendous problem for others. I have heard people on various threads say things like, “Colleges expect you to use all available savings.†“Colleges consider all available college funds to be used for the first child.†“Colleges expect you to stop retirement savings.†Therefore, it suggests that those families should have no emergency fund, have no savings for subsequent children, and should stop funding retirement for maybe a decade or so in order to afford certain schools. We had friends over whose daughter applied for Harvard and said that if she gets in, it will cost less than our state school. (I am happy for them, and I hope she gets in!) This family has fewer children than we have and a very similar lifestyle. When I looked up our price at Harvard, it was 3 times what he told me they’d have to pay. (And I honestly don’t begrudge them that at all, I just find this to be an unexpected part of the process.) We’re using the same strategy for college that we use for house hunting - only looking at what we can afford. It seems a lot easier with housing because the price is the price, end of story, and is not dependent on how much we earn or how much we’ve saved. If I can’t afford a house it is because it is priced out of my range, not because I earn too much or have saved too much. I just think this pricing structure makes things confusing and makes certain schools unaffordable for some families. I just wonder if there is a better way that would make prices truly affordable for more families and also for individuals who can’t rely on family support.

My oldest is a junior, and the entire process seems odd to me on the financial end. I totally understand giving grants or free tuition to low income families. Those students do deserve access to higher education. However, the practice of pricing college according to a family’s income doesn’t make sense to me. When I go buy a car or a house, there is a given price that we can choose to pay (or not) as we see fit. The seller doesn’t say we want x% of your income and y% of your assets. I don’t undertand why we find that practice acceptable when it comes to college tuition. In some ways it feels like there are value judgments being made against families at certain income levels. To those who didn’t save, we say you shouldn’t have taken that vacation, shouldn’t have had so many kids, shouldn’t have bought a big house, etc. But then for those who did save or invest wisely, we say well you have more so you should pay more. We don’t (and shouldn’t) make those value judgments at lower income levels. Why not just set a standard price for everyone above a certain basic income level? Also, even if I did find tiered pricing appropriate, the price seems way too high. 30-40% for one student is a large chunk of a family’s income. That is more than most families spend on housing, basic living expenses, etc. And if a family is budgeting according to the recommended amounts - 20% taxes, 10% retirement, 10% giving, 25% housing, 5% transportation, etc. - they can easily end up in a place where that 30-40% for college costs for one student IS unaffordable or extremely unwise. It just seems to me that prices across the board (even at state schools) are way too high and are being justified with this tiered pricing system that pits different income levels against each other. I also question basing college pricing on an EFC. Some parents choose not to contribute to funding college, and those students are left with few options. I know there is a big push for free tuition and it makes sense at certain income levels. I just wonder why there isn’t more pressure to reduce prices across the board for everyone. This would give families at all income levels more options and would give students without family help more of a chance to take care of college costs on their own. A friend clued me in to the cost of college a few years ago. I was shocked! The state school we went to had quadrupled in price. So I went into the process understanding that college was way more expensive than most people realize. (And I’ve been sure to tell all my friends about it.) But I am just now beginning to understand the tiered pricing structure. It seems very odd to me.

Our university had Golden Key National Honor Society.

For elementary school: A Beka Phonics A Beka Math A Beka Grammar Christian Liberty Press Spelling Tiner Science Books (Exploring the World of...) For middle school: WWS

I just had a thread about this in the K-8 forum. Only one of my 3 oldest kids is super enthusiastic about learning. The other 2 want to check the boxes and get done. I thought I had done something wrong, but it was suggested that the two box checkers were more normal and the super enthusiastic learner is the abnormal one. Maybe help your 8th grader focus on thr long-term goal. My oldest will read the Illiad and study for the SAT, etc. because he wants to go to college and knows he needs the credits, SAT scores, etc. Outside of taking honors math and physics, and some DE courses next year, I’m not having him do things at a super high level. I always try to emphasize the purpose behind what we’re doing, and while he’s not necessarily thrilled about it, he’ll get it done and usually at a level that is just enough for an A. This kid is a master at getting a 90.1 or a 90.3, lol! Maybe your 8th grader would like to try DE courses. My oldest likes the idea of getting credit for classes vs. just taking them for the sake of it.

Well, this thread was about my 5th grader, but I just had a great conversation with my 11th grader prompted by all the food for thought you all gave me. It felt really good to affirm all of the positives I see in him and I can tell he appreciated it. Thanks so much for helping me think clearly about all of this!

Thanks for sharing your experience with Collin. This CC is also our back up plan for ds in case he doesn’t get enough merit money to go straight to a 4 yr. so it’s good to know it is a quality school.

I only have 7 kids ages 17 to 2, and I can definitely get overwhelmed at times. For cleaning, I have one kid assigned to clear the table and load the dishwasher after breakfast, one after lunch, and one after dinner. If they do it right after the meal, the kitchen stays nice enough. The washer and dryer go all day. Every afternoon, we set the timer and spend an hour cleaning, vacuuming, folding laundry, and putting it away. I tell my kids, 4 people cleaning for 15 min equals one hour of cleaning. So even if the big kids and I only have 15 min to work, we can get a lot done. We won’t pass the white glove test, but a one hour cleaning period daily seems to keep things nice enough. I also keep meals simple during the week. Breakfast is either eggs and toast OR oatmeal. Lunch is soup or chips and sandwiches. I also keep unhealthy frozen stuff on hand that I can just pop in the oven. I wasn’t happy about doing this at first, but it works for days when I’m in a pinch and it has helped tremendously.

KrissiK and Above the Rowan - it really does help to know I’m not alone! This sounds so much like my oldest: A friend once told me that some kids are not going to be happy to learn things just for the sake of it and need their work to be purposeful. And I have noticed with my oldest that although he might not be thrilled to do certain things, he will get it done to accomplish a goal. For instance, he put in a lot of time studying for the SAT because there is scholarship potential. And before he started Derek Owens, he let me know he wanted to get going on precal and physics because those subjects are important for his future. So while these kids may not care to participate in The Great Conversation, we can be thankful they are willing to check the boxes to meet a bigger goal. Something that helped motivate my oldest was having outside accountability - an outsourced science class in 9th grade, and co-ops sophmore and junior year. Again, he didn’t love it, but he always turned in his assignments, and he was learning. Having a job was also good for him. He only refs soccer on the weekends right now, but I’ll be glad when bball season is over, and he can work during the week a bit. It seems to do him good to have that time outside of the house, and he said it made him feel good to have real responsibilities and get rewarded for them.

Lori, thank you so much for the reality check. I think I have visions of teens who love reading Plato and speaking multiple languages and doing lab research, and even though I’d rather have teeth pulled than do those things myself, I’m wondering why my kids aren’t interested. Lol! I just had all these visions of “Educating the Wholehearted Child†and kids who love learning. The reality of it looks so differently than I thought it would. Dd really is the odd person in our home, and I am often asking her WHY she wants to do xyz and encouraging her to take a day off. It does not make any sense for me to hold her up as the standard. I do need to be thankful for my kids and our journey, and plan things that make sense for our family. I do need to accept that there’s nothing wrong with my oldest. He is just being himself, and I was about the same at his age. It’s just hard sometimes to keep everything in perspective. I’ll let 5th grade ds continue to be himself, and work on finding some things for him to explore. We had a garden for the first time ever last summer, so I guess he can start by planning for spring. We were also going to build a play structure in the back yard and do some hiking. So I did have some hands on stuff in mind. I guess I just got stuck on the thought that I’d made a mistake somewhere, and the kids should love their bookwork. I love all the ideas mentioned up thread. I have 3 boys right in the middle (5, 8, and 11) so this should be really helpful for them. Thanks so much!

Good point. Maybe I need to focus on the value I see in what they’re doing and not expect them to appear excited and thankful. Your story about WWS reminded me that my oldest was never super excited to pull out the book, but that is one of the programs he believes was very useful.

Maybe it makes more sense to say that I don’t feel I successfully transistioned my oldest to a more mature approach to learning. Not just being willing to do the work, but valuing it.

I did really believe in giving my children lots of free time to play and do their own thing. Just 4 years ago, I thought things were going really well. The kids were doing well academically, and we had relaxed, stress-free days. We had fun and have lots of happy memories. But the fruit of it really isn’t what I expected. My oldest has a lot of great qualities, but he just isn’t interested in learning. He’ll do the work, but he isn’t curious. Doesn’t ask questions. Doesn’t care to explore. No interests. Dh has noticed it, as well. I wasn’t concerned about 5th grade ds until he made the comment about Spanish. I see him enjoying our group lessons (smiling, participating), and I know he is learning, but since it’s requiring effort and it’s not mandatory, it seems he’d rather not bother. It’s not that I want my kids to be like anyone else’s kids. I get it that we’re all different. It’s just that I'm noticing that one of them is lacking in a specific area, and I see the seeds of that sprouting up in another kid. I feel like it’s a product of my teaching. I’m just not sure how to fix it.

Thank you, Lori, for your thoughtful reply. Thank you all. You’ve given me a lot to think about. Ds does everything except Spanish and SOTW independently. In fact, if we have a really crazy week and I end up not getting to him until Friday, I know all of his work will be done. I think A Beka math and grammar are too easy for him. My oldest likes Derek Owens and still speaks really highly about what he learned with WWS so that’s why I thought I’d upgrade to those programs next year. I think you all are right that I don’t need to punish him for being efficient. And he does not cause any behavior problems by finishing up early. I just worry that he is more focused on box checking than enjoying learning. I am concerned that I instilled that mindset in my oldest son. He is not like other WTM kids who seek out knowledge and crave advanced subjects. I tried to get him interested in speech and debate and lots of other things. All he wanted to do was check the school boxes, work, and play basketball. So I really want to course correct for the younger ones. I set them up to be really independent because I was so busy being pregnant and having babies and nursing. I didn’t want them to get behind because of me. Even my 8 yo just grabs his books in the morning and gets started. It has served them well academically and they don’t complain, but I’m concerned about the mentality that we just get this done so we can go do what we REALLY want to do. But what they really want to do does not involve learning, just playing. Which seems fine until you have a 17 year old with no interests. (I hate to make him seem like a bad kid. He’s a good kid and a solid student. But he has no interests.) They do enjoy SOTW and reading. 5th grade ds loves science kits and stuff, and he really does enjoy Spanish, and I’m so surprised at how well he is learning it. The flashcards are only about 15 minutes of writing 2-3 times week. I am just so surprised he would give up learning a language because of that. Everyone except oldest dd seems to have a very leisure based, play mentality. Is that really normal? It seems a lot different than others on this forum. I would really like my kids to ENJOY learning. Although, it seems a bit hypocritical since I was a box checker all the way through college. I did like learning. I just didn’t like school. But I wanted better for my kids.

That’s a really helpful way to think about it. Thank you! I wish I would have done better with my oldest son. 9th grade was our disaster year. I just didn’t know how to grab and hold his interest. He does fine academically. He’s just not engaged. Did you schedule those resources for your ds?

Ds will be in 6th grade next school year. Right now, he does A Beka 5th grade math/language arts/cursive, Christian Liberty Press Spelling 5, and Exploring the World of... books by Tiner. He finishes all of his schoolwork within 1-2 hours and spends the rest of the day playing legos, basketball, outside, etc. We also do SOTW a couple of times per week, and he joins his older siblings for high school Spanish 1. We’re using Lifepacs for this (doing it as a group) so it’s not super rigorous, but he’s learning it very easily. I tried to beef up his school a bit more by doing Challenge Math and drawing maps, but he didn’t like it so I let him stop. I just feel at this age he should spend more time working and less playing. I asked what language he’d like to learn after Spanish, and he said nothing because it takes too long to write the flashcards and do the exercises. This seems like a bad attitude to have about learning. Next year, I am planning to have him do the following for his individual work: -Derek Owens’ Pre Algebra -Exploration Education Physical Science (he loves science) -WWS1 -Vocab Workshop -piano I’m also going to have him do SOTW 3 with younger siblings and Spanish 2 with older siblings. He is a super efficient worker so I think this will still leave him with a ton of free time. My main concern is that I don’t want him to develop a lazy attitude about learning and think he should have lots of free time to just play. My older dd loves learning, but oldest ds (while smart and a good kid) has no real passion for learning, and I wonder if it is because he had too much free time when he was younger.

Thanks for the link and the advice! I was warned not to blindly trust the advisors at the CC so it’s good to know I need to be careful at the undergraduate level, as well.

Evanthe, I have thought the same thing... If she can’t handle a heavy science load at the university, then med school probably isn’t a good idea. If things work out, though, I hope she can get calculus and some science done through as was suggested above. Why do you regret majoring in biology?

No problem! And that is just the minimum A&M will give her. She could get even more. This thread from College Confidential lists other schools that offer scholarships for NHRP. https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/hispanic-students/1972661-2017-nhrp-scholars-scholarships-p1.html There are some really good scholarships on this list. Congrats!!!

This is so helpful, Lori! Thanks so much!

Here’s an example: http://scholarships.tamu.edu/Scholarship-Programs/National-Scholars#0-NationalHispanic It’s automatic money.