Of course any of these worksheet type programs can be done for free if you take the time and effort to do it :lol:.... but for the rest of us lazy folk why work if you can spend money :tongue_smilie:? Seriously though, when I looked at the samples, they showed a whole sheet with only 3 facts repeated randomly over the sheet... so it gradually teaches them the facts and encourages success because they only have to do 9+9, 9+1 and 9+0 for the first few times until they master it.. .and then I'm assuming they add in one or two as it goes along. It sounds very similar to calculadders which I once had a hard copy of but lost in the chaos of having twins a few years back. I'm thinking that if you bought just the addition one, you could easily copy the concept for yourself and make up your own -, x, and / ones by just changing the signs, kwim?

Thank you for an alternative viewpoint! I always appreciate your posts. It's easy to get swept up into the latest new 'thing' on the boards, and I agree with you about these posts diminishing the value of the other solid math programs. I am very very happy with Horizons, and as I have been following these threads, and then looking into MM online as well, I have realized that there is quite a bit of conceptual explanations in Horizons (in fact the last two years we have spent quite a large portion of the first month on the principles of addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, and it's nice to be able to revisit these every year, now that the pegs are there, and add to the conceptual understanding of it all). I am happy with these threads because, while not causing me to jump ship on my chosen math program, they have encouraged me to not gloss over the explanations in our math program... and spend the time using the manipulatives and playing with the math, even at the grade 5 level. I was tempted to just skip all the review lessons at the beginning of the book this year, but now I am encouraged to go over them again while at the same time deepening our understanding of the concepts. And it's nice to know that MM is easy to download a few topics here and there for extra review. Thanks everyone!

:lurk5: I would like to know too... I just looked into it and it looks very similar to calculadders... I need something that I can print out each day for ease of use.

Math with your first can be very stressful, because you want to do the right thing and the perfect thing... Here's a few thoughts (from a non mathy experty type person LOL) Try not to jump around to much within each YEAR. Pick something at the beginning and stick with it, teaching her perseverance and how to work through things that are difficult. If she doesn't know her math facts, that can easily be remedied alongside ANY curriculum. Try not to show your OWN frustration and stress about math, or even just the way a certain curriculum teaches, in front of her. She might be picking up on that and then reflecting your own frustrations. Don't write off Saxon or the more spirally math curriculums from your short experience with the early years saxon. I didn't like the grade 1-3 saxon books either (too scripted for me and hard to find your way around them if you aren't using the scripts for the teacher... I hated it). We switched to Horizons in grade 3 and haven't looked back since. I often cross off half the problems (which she thinks is a huge bonus) and we are both very happy with it. It's not a strong asian math conceptual amazing program LOL, but I'm ok with that. :-) You have to do what works, right? Not necessarily what is the most perfect math out there. And don't worry about swtiching from elementary math to a different curriculum for prealgebra/algebra. Almost everyone does that. If you can spend the next three years in one curriculum you will have a nice solid grounding for prealgebra. If CLE was working for you, then switch back to it and stay there... or tough out the next year of Saxon until you can reach 54 and it will likely get much better for you because it is a very different curriculum then. hth!

This is how we do it. Doing everything every day causes me to burnout. We do FLL 3 times a week and phonics/reading practice 3 times a week. history/science are rotated (actually MT is history and WR is science with F leftover for anything we didn't finish. I find it's easier to do two days in a row of a subject like that). take control and give yourself some peace back! btw everything seems harder when you are feeling rotten. It will get better!

What is CSMP?

Thank you! i will look into MEP as free sounds like my style right now. What i need are things that can be adapted for the needs of a large busy family. Any ideas? I just don't have oodles of time. Btw where does LoF fit into the spectrum?

Mmmm ketchup! I like your explanation of the 'grammar' of math. We started with MUS and i got stressed and scared into switching when i realized all we did in alpha was learn addition and subtraction, amd the other math S&Ss where teaching fractions and calendars and who knows what else. Would you consider MUS a more 'conceptual type program'? When you say get them to work to understand 8+7 does this mean the whole number bonds thing? I have a dd in K right now, and two 4 year olds who will be starting K next year and i'm open to learning a new way to teach math. It's just scary to try to learn something new for myself, kwim? Is singapore easy to teach? What about MM? I ask, not to be lazy, but to be realistic, as i don't have the conceptual understanding, nor do i have loads of time to teach each individual child as i have six kids under ten. (i ditched traditional spelling like spelling workout because it was not providing any conceptual understanding :lol: and switched to AAS, but find it takes so much more time to implement that i have a harder time getting it done. Is a great program that gathers dust still better than a poorer program that you use every day?

OH THAT'S my problem... i'm not 40 yet :lol: Seriously though, I can see where you might be right about the curriculum, but now as adults, we already have the structure in our minds to hang the understand on. We know how to do math so it's easier to understand the why now because we aren't trying to learn it all at the same time. (like I said, i'm just trying to think through these things out loud.. I don't have any real experience or knowledge about all of this so don't attack me, but I'm certainly open to getting a better understanding of it). Of course I am aware of this and I have the LCC book and know about neo-classical vs real classical (oh the debates homeschoolers can have:D)... but I believe there is truth to the fact that the human mind does need to grow before it can understand and manipulate certain kinds of information... or maybe that's totally outdated? No, it can't be... I have watched my own kids grow slowly through preschool and the elementry years and they do have to mature before they can get certain things... For one, I'm thinking about something simple like a sense of humor and learning to get the irony in jokes. Is this conceptual math thing really that serious? I am truly going to be holding my kids back from some great career if I don't teach them that way? Can you REALLY compare it to breastfeeding vs bottle feeding? I"m interested.. really. I guess I'll have to get the famous book. I wonder if it's in my library.

:iagree:

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Now you all have me thinking more about math and about my own understanding of it and I'm intrigued :glare: How can I add in some of this great conceptual math to the program I am already using? I can't see me jumping ship on my curriculum mid year, but I'm open to some helpful ideas to add in some of this stuff. How can I enlighten MYSELF about this way of math thinking?

Thanks Mandy.. this does help. What of the parents who don't have the understanding themselves :-) ? I have had aha moments in many math concepts, now as an adult, but in some things I'm clueless. Maybe it's just the program (horizons) that i'm using (because it doesn't seem to spend a whole lot of time explaining concepts, and I find the TM confusing to use). Does this Lipping Ma book explain some of the whys? I'm fascinated by the spinoff discussion on they why of long division! I never knew division was just fast subtracting. Of course it should have occurred to me, since I knew that multiplication was fast adding :blush:. I don't want to switch at this point to Singapore. We are in grade 5 and so close to being done the elementary math sequence and it hurts my brain to think of learning a new way of math. :001_huh: You people scare me with these asian math threads... I CAN'T get sucked in HAHAHAH.. I already got sucked into AAS from you crazy people.

I am no expert in these issues and I haven't read 'the book', but I do have some questions about this... What if a child's brain isn't actually mature enough to 'get' some of these concepts yet? I've heard on these boards many times about homeschool moms who have had those 'aha' moments in math while teaching their own children (and thus are encouraged to teach the understanding to their own children)... but you had this aha moment as an adult when you have so much more maturity and growth in your brains. Could it be true that just as some kids are slower for reading to 'click' that conceptual math skills will also be slower? Just because you don't teach it in the early years doesn't mean you can't teach it though the logic stage or older. I love learning the why of math now.. but I have the basic skills that allow me to hang that understanding somewhere in my brain. Not trying to argue.. just wondering about child development.... and thinking about things like why we don't start logic until later etc...

:tongue_smilie: mmmmmmm.... french Fries!! (and more importantly, for my sad gluten free self, they are some of the only fast food variety of fries that I can eat!) Now I want to go get some!!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: For some reason, this just cracked me up !! Thanks for the chuckle. :iagree: I haven't read 'the book' so I don't know what to think about this whole debate thats been going on, but I myself have done very well learning math my whole life without understanding the why of it either. I don't think I was ready to conceptually understand some of those ideas. I have watched my kids learn math through the elementary years and realized that some, who are more spatial, seem to 'get it' and internalize an understanding.. and others who are less spatial and more like me, seem to do just fine learning the 'steps' without a deep understanding. It is just the grammar stage and there is time for their brains to develop and go back and understand the beauty of math, isn't there?

I love the spiral approach of Horizons and think it's a great curriculum. We've been using it from gr 2-5, but now I'm starting to think about what we will use after Horizons (as it only goes until grade 6). I believe that Saxon math will be a good fit for us. While I despised the elementary Saxon books, I know the upper level math is written by a different author and am hoping it will be an easy transition from Horizons. I have a few questions for anyone who is familiar with Saxon and anyone who would has gone through Horizons. While reading Art Reed's website, he seems to think that if you want to switch to Saxon, you should start with Saxon 76. So I am wondering if I should actually switch to Saxon in grade 6 instead of finishing up Horizons with grade 6. Is it worth having an extra year before prealgebra to get used to Saxon's style of teaching? Or will we be happier staying with Horizons for the last year? Basically the question is this: If she did well in horizons 6, will she be ok starting in algebra 1/2 or 1, or should you really be starting with saxon a year earlier to get used to the curriculum? thanks!

:iagree: ooo i like this idea!

We have a big snack so that the kids can wait till 1 to eat linch without starving. We have a short lunch, because i want to finish as much as we can to have a bigger break in the afternoon. .... That being said, some days of the atmosphere seems like they need a break, we take one earlier.

:lol: well I certainly know not to wake a sleeping baby! However, since we will likely stay with saxon through high school, is it better to switch earlier to get into the saxon groove? I like how saxon revies the math facts. I suppose we are suppossed to be doing that alongside horizons (if i actually followed the teacher's manual :D). Thank you

Ok, i see what you are saying, thank you. The website i mentioned (Art Reed) called 76 the lynchpin of saxon, implying that if a child didn't understand that book, then they would have problems down the road in algebra. But I think you are helping me to see that Horizons is a strong math program and so that shouldn't make a difference whether we do grade 6 horizons or saxon 76, as long as she is showing a strong grasp of the material. What higher level algebra are you using?

Thank you for sharing your experience! That is exactly what i was looking for. I think we'll finish horizons 5 and take the saxon placement test and see what i feel like doing then. How much harder is 87 compared to 76?

LOL, that's why i asked here, because we all know that the collective mind of the homeschooling community is a much better guide than any Mr. Whatshisnames :D Thanks for the advice on the placement tests btw. I never really thought about them. I just don't want it to be a complete shock when switching to a new curriculum. I wish horizons did higher math. I am probably over thinking this, like usual.

LOL... it is covered in FLL 3 at the end of the book as a supplement that you can add into the course at any point, and of course as they get older it will be covered in writing programs (at least it was in Writing Tales). I don't see the need before then. :D I don't see why you would even need a curriculum for that topic though, now that I think about it.. just pick up a dictionary and play around with it and look at the words and talk about the guide words at the top of the page that help you quickly scan what's on the page... It's so easy to slip into the thinking that we need worksheets and curriculum for every topic. (funny story: my little dd5 was playing with this really old Websters unabridged dictionary that my mom gave us and she's so proud of her new sounding-out abilities that she turned to a page and tried to read the first word she saw..... you know what it was? one-night-stand. :001_huh: How was I supposed to read the definition for THAT one?? and why, out of 2300 pages, would she pick that one ?)

I love the spiral approach of Horizons and think it's a great curriculum. We've been using it from gr 2-5, but now I'm starting to think about what we will use after Horizons (as it only goes until grade 6). I believe that Saxon math will be a good fit for us. While I despised the elementary Saxon books, I know the upper level math is written by a different author and am hoping it will be an easy transition from Horizons. I have a few questions for anyone who is familiar with Saxon and anyone who would has gone through Horizons. While reading Art Reed's website, he seems to think that if you want to switch to Saxon, you should start with Saxon 76. So I am wondering if I should actually switch to Saxon in grade 6 instead of finishing up Horizons with grade 6. Is it worth having an extra year before prealgebra to get used to Saxon's style of teaching? Or will we be happier staying with Horizons for the last year? thanks!

Here is what I do, and it has been working out really well: Start over breakfast (best time to catch everyone because they haven't wandered off and started doing something else yet). 8:00 am: I start with Bible and Latin altogether at the table. While the kids are still at the table, I instruct my oldest (gr 5) to pull out her daily work that she can do independently and give her a few (2 min) tips on what to do and how to get started... then I give 2min tips to my 2nd oldest (gr 2) about what he can do independently (math or copywork). 8:30 am Then, before my K has left the table, (or I go and find her LOL), I start the individual portion of the day by teaching from youngest to oldest. This makes sense to me because the youngest will be finished first, and the oldest has more independent work to do while I'm working with the others. I do K: reading, phonics, writing and math and dismiss her for the day to go play. 9:30 then I interrupt my gr 2 in what he's doing (math) and tell him he can go back to math when I am done teaching him. we do: (gr 2) phonics, reading, WWE, grammar, handwriting (on certain days) and I review his math with him. Then he is dismissed to finish up his math, complete the copywork from WWE if there was any and finish his handwriting sheet. 10:30 We all have a snack and the kids usually work through their snack at the table. 11:00 I help my oldest (gr 5). We go over her math, latin, grammar, writing. She keeps working on her independent work 12:00 (I pushed back lunch until 1pm so that we could get the majority of our teacher directed work done before lunch... for some reason after lunch we are much less productive). History read aloud MTW or science read aloud (RF) While I"m reading, the kids are working on various history stuff, coloring pages, history pocket stuff, or any leftover school work they can do while listening. 1:00 LUNCH! Now we are done with all the stuff I need to be really present for and since I eat faster than them I will often read during lunch as well. 1:30 or 2:00 they finish up any work they have leftover from the morning and then we are done!! ------------- I also have 2 preschoolers and a baby, so we are busy... but for some reason putting a schedule down on paper has really helped. I gave myself one hour with each kid which is WAY more than I really need, (so I don't feel as stressed, and I can throw a load of laundry in or start a snack or lunch before I need to grab the next kid to work with)... and I keep moving on even if they aren't done with math etc... That becomes their job to finish after lunch. This way I'm not on the hook all day (which can be draining). THEY are responsible for how long school will take them to finish. Hope that helps a bit :-)