Another vote for BFSU. The lesson format is not user-friendly for the parent, but I think the approach is fabulous, and DD6 is eating it up and asks to do science almost every day. I think it's fun to teach, since my own science education was abysmal and I'm learning right along with her! We supplement with living books (when we can find some at our lame library) and make notebook pages when there's something to draw or write down - it's totally low-key and flexible. If you do one lesson every two weeks you can finish the first volume in about two years, or you can pick up the pace here and there and then do longer unit studies on certain subjects, which is my plan. I love the flexibility. Oh, and the manual is cheap and the experiments use mostly household items. Most importantly for us, the topics we've covered so far are foundational to understanding the natural world (the concepts build on each other), and it's easy to connect what we're learning to everyday life. I really think that that is what makes this program so fun for us, and well worth the planning time for me at this point.

What does it mean, then? Seriously, I really don't know, nor do most people posting in this thread, I imagine. I'm very curious to hear input on this.

This. We are very religious, but that's not why we homeschool. I posted earlier that we chose to homeschool because we are passionate about classical education and couldn't afford private school.

I can't answer for most others I know, but among my close friends it runs the gamut. We don't really talk about it much, not because we'd argue, but because we all support each other regardless of our differences and it's just not on the radar. Yes, I am very fortunate!! We homeschool for primarily academic reasons. Of course there are other aspects of homeschooling that we value (flexibility, freedom, family dynamics) but academics is the main one, and the one that got us started. DH and I were sold on the idea of classical education before we even had kids. His cousin, one of my closest friends, became a teacher in a classical school and she really inspired us. Back then I was all about sending my [yet-to-be-born] kids to a classical school someday, if we'd ever be able to afford it (which I knew was doubtful, but I kept hoping). I really wasn't interested in homeschooling initially, but we took a hard look at the financial reality when our oldest daughter was two, and decided that if our kids were to have a classical education, we were going to have to do it ourselves. I did know a lot of homeschoolers, many of whom were also using some degree of classical ed, so I started asking questions and doing research, and the more I found out, the more both DH and I fell in love with the whole idea of it. Now, even if we could afford a classical school, I'd probably continue to homeschool for the many benefits it has for our family.

I have a BMus and a MFA, both in vocal performance. I was an opera singer, a piano and voice teacher, and a church worship director before I had kids and decided to stay home full time. DH has a BFA in Environmental Design/Architecture and a MDiv. He is currently working on a Master of Theology. He was a professional mural artist and an architect before going to seminary and is on the verge of being called to pastor a church.

HA! This happened to me just this morning, and I was flabbergasted - LOL!

Finally commenting again, after doing a lot of reading - both this thread, and literary critiques of TBE (as suggested by someone early on). I probably need to be done, as this has taken up too much of my brain space since Monday. This has been a fascinating and enlightening thread for me. Thanks to many of you who have thoughtfully replied, I do understand how a certain level of disturbing graphic detail, done purposefully, can be of value in supporting a good story that contributes to the Great Conversation, and is perhaps even necessary in order for the author to fully explore his/her themes. I get that in a way that I did not before, and I can understand why so many of you appreciate this novel. So, yes, I have considered another point of view and adjusted my own in some ways. *GASP* It is still my personal view, however, that the level of explicitness in TBE is excessive, and crosses a moral/ethical line somehow, even if the author's intentions were noble. I don't pretend to be the arbiter of where that line would actually be drawn for everyone (and I'm not even certain where it is exactly in terms of my own ethical standards), but we all have our own lines, based on some purposeful standard. Obviously there are many people whose moral/ethical lines are drawn in a different places from mine, and I accept that. I can respect the views of others without agreeing with them. And I can especially treat others with respect regardless of what I actually think of their views. I also am very familiar with the Bible, and it does indeed contain a host of disturbing topics and events (war, murder, rape, incest, child sacrifice, etc.), sometimes with graphic detail. It is brutally honest about the human condition and portrays a great deal of horrific evil within the context of a larger story of redemption. I don't believe that God wants us to hide from reality, then or now. But for the record, while there are graphic depictions in the Bible of murder and other heinous things, there is no biblical passage that contains the explicit details of a rape, let alone one against a child. That doesn't necessarily mean it is never called for in literature, but you simply won't find it in the Bible. The Song of Songs (or Solomon) contains poetic and graphic imagery of beautiful sexual acts between consenting adults, but again, that's not the same thing by any means. I am horrified at sexual abuse, and even if someone else does need to read it in explicit detail in order to be sufficiently horrified, I do not. Regarding children (or "young adults", as 16-17yos have been referred to, understandably), I'm not sure how much of even the Bible is appropriate to introduce to a child of a certain age, but I guess I will figure that out as my kids get older (my oldest is 6). That will take a lot of wisdom, as will deciding what literature I will introduce to them and when. I hope to prepare them to deal with disturbing topics as they mature, and to discuss those topics in a safe and nurturing environment, so that by the time they are out of my house they are well-equipped to make their own decisions with wisdom and discernment, whether or not I would approve. I wish my parents had done that with me. Finally, I am dismayed at the vitriol and bitter sarcasm in this thread, on all sides. This is supposed to be a supportive community, and since I joined I have valued the input of all kinds of people with whom I disagree in various ways. I hope that once this thread dies we can move on to discuss and disagree with courtesy and respect. Or hey, why not start now???

Asking sincere questions here: If part of the point is to arouse feelings of anger and disgust (which I agree is a valid purpose), do you equally approve of viewing/studying a visual depiction of these acts, such as a museum-quality painting or illustration (not photography - see below)? If so, would you consider it appropriate material for a high school art class? And I am referring only to explicit, graphic child rape, not murder or adult rape, both of which I realize are historically well represented within the world of fine visual art. Please understand - I'm dead serious. I've thoughtfully considered a lot of things since this came up yesterday - some of which I will try to post when I have more time to get my head together, and this thought occurred to me last night. Is there a meaningful difference? I'm not sure. And again, I am asking a sincere question because I really don't know what people will say, and I'm honestly willing to consider their point of view, whether or not I end up agreeing with it. I think this is a fascinating discussion about art and culture. [One important clarification: Obviously photography is not the same thing since it would have to involve an actual child (unless it's photoshopped, etc). I don't even know if a photoshopped image would be legal - probably not, though my assumption (based in ignorance, admittedly) is that child porn is illegal only because it exploits the child(ren) involved, not because of the image itself. ???] I can't talk to DH (a professionally-trained fine artist) since he's unavailable for chit-chat until tomorrow night, but I am curious about his point of view on this particular issue as well.

I understand that standards of morality are subjective in our society, and that people are going to disagree about what is appropriate and/or acceptable. I asked why someone would consider those explicit depictions to be what you referred to as "critically important details". Admittedly, it is so far outside my frame of reference that I can't wrap my head around it, and I sincerely wanted to know, whether or not I end up agreeing with it. I wasn't "baiting" anyone, and I haven't attacked anyone, nor posted anything ugly or critical, nor proclaimed myself to be the czar of anything. I am willing to concede that, from a purely literary standpoint, there may be some justification for it from the author's point of view, but NO ONE has answered that particular question, including you. Do you have an answer, besides "the author thought it was important"?? Of course she did, and I would expect her to, as a Pulitzer Prize-winning author. But that's not what I asked.

I am still waiting for an answer as to what actual benefit or value there is in depicting criminal sexual acts against a child in an explicit way, rather than keeping the story line and exploring the themes in a less graphic manner. I would expect a solid answer to that in regard to any quality piece of literature. Anyone???

Can we please get past the definition of porn???? kwickimom, please let it go. Porn is not the issue. It doesn't have to be porn in order for it to be appalling and inappropriate for a reading list for minors (and yes, I realize that those are subjective terms). Even without having read it, I agree it's not porn by definition, but what redeeming value does the explicit depiction of child rape have? Or the explicit depiction of a cruel and violent murder, for that matter? I do get the point of literature, and I realize that sometimes disturbing subjects need to be addressed in fictional form. But why is such a level of detail necessary, or even valuable? Is it really the only - or the best - way to get the message across? Sincerely asking, as I have not seen this issue addressed directly on this thread yet.

I do agree with this. Just to clarify my earlier post, when I said that OPG sometimes boring, I was referring to the stories/sentences themselves. Most of them are not very interesting, but frankly, that didn't bother me, nor did it seem to bother DD - she just wasn't all excited about doing her reading lessons. Certainly the method itself can be made more fun with doing the activities, if your DC needs that. I also find that DD is distracted by colorful pictures, so plain text works much better for us in general. I'm a fan of doing what gets the job done efficiently as long as it's working. YMMV. Lots of things are fun, but some - like the mechanics of processing phonics, especially in the beginning - just aren't fun, and don't have to be, in my opinion. Once the initial fascination wore off, DD sometimes complained that it was "work", and I simply told her than anything worth learning is hard work sometimes. That's a reality of life that she might as well understand now, so I didn't blame the method. Knowing how to read is very fun, and once she figured that out we were off to the races and she never complained again.

No experience with AAR, but I've found OPGTR to be straightforward, sometimes boring, and effective. And CHEAP. I started DD6 on it when she was 4, took some breaks here and there for new baby, etc., but she's almost finished and is reading very, very well for her age. DD4 is going through it now. There are certainly more exciting programs out there, but I found OPG to be sufficient for getting the job done. We didn't do any of the supplementary activities, and I modified the script on the fly as needed. We are going to start spelling with LOE Essentials this week. I know that learning the phonics rules more thoroughly will improve her reading considerably, but I didn't want to bog down the learning-to-read process with too many explicit rules (as long as DD was "getting it"). I thought that OPG did a good job of balancing basic phonics instruction with just getting the child reading, at a pace that was reasonable. I'm very happy with it.

I can't resist pointing out what is utterly obvious to me: The nature of these two comments is very different. In the first, CrimsonWife was simply saying that the Nazis and Soviets AGREED with one statement made by Leav97, which is a historical fact, and germane to the discussion on educational methods. She did not say that Leav97 is a Nazi or a Soviet because she holds that one view in common with them. On the other hand, Mergath said that people who bring up Nazis in internet discussions (a category which includes CrimsonWife, of course) are idiots, and THAT is a character attack...calling someone a name. BIG difference. Yes, it IS completely different. You attacked her character by calling her a name (indirectly, yes, but you did it). I guess if she had used the generic term "totalitarian governments" instead of "Nazis and Soviets" the first time it would have made the difference? In any case, she didn't call anyone a Nazi. It takes a lot more than believing that all children should go to government schools to actually be a Nazi or to buy into their entire ideology, and no one has been accused of that, either directly or indirectly.

We don't really do notebook pages (at least not with summaries, etc.). I just have DD6 answer the narration questions orally, talk to me about something she learned and then do the coloring page, map and sometimes another activity page and/or supplemental reading. I keep the activity papers in a notebook, and I figure that's plenty to show for history for first grade.

They are not fixable. The cultural mindset about education (which has been shaped by a flawed educational ideology paired with increasing parental irresponsibility) is too entrenched at this point. The train is too big and moving too fast to turn around without a huge cultural shift that would take decades. And that would be just the beginning. Imagine what it would take - once the cultural changes took place - for all the structural changes to be figured out, let alone implemented. Not gonna happen. I just wonder how bad it will actually get and what the educational landscape will look like later on. I will say that parental involvement is the only thing that could actually improve (not "fix") the situation in the short term. But try getting parents who have been brainwashed into thinking that the government is responsible for their children to make personal sacrifices (oh the horror!) to see that their children are well educated. The parents are the problem as much as the government bureaucracy, and changing the mindset of people is a far greater challenge than fixing a structural system. I find it interesting that most parents I know whose kids are in PS are at least somewhat happy with it, while the PS employees I know (teachers, staff, administrators) are the ones who think it's going in the toilet. Go figure.

Yep - good ol' Thompson - that's how I started, though I didn't use it for my students (I liked Alfred mainly, for the lower levels especially). I'll also say that while making piano study fun at times (with popular songs, etc) can be a good thing, there is no substitute for "building the chops" with proper technique. You just can't get around the fact that learning a skill like that requires practicing stuff that's just plain boring. Five-finger exercises? Scales? Ugh. Parents need to make sure their kids understand this aspect of music study from the get-go, though in my experience, many parents are worse than the kids in that regard! The kids and/or their parents who expected it to be all fun and games didn't last long in my studio. But the ones who were willing to embrace the not-so-fun stuff found themselves enjoying the fun stuff eventually, with good technique and a wonderful sense of accomplishment. Very rewarding.

I am a former piano teacher. I have a master's degree in voice, but I studied piano and piano pedagogy as well. I'm not going to start teaching my own daughter until she's 7, so I'd say your instincts are correct that your kids are a bit young - especially the 4yo. My policy was to tell parents to wait until at least 6 or so, unless they had a bright and eager 5yo who was reading well and who had the finger strength to play with proper technique (some don't, and you only find that out via evaluation). In our case, I don't want to overload DD since we just added several academic subjects for first grade, and for the time being we are enjoying listening to music and encouraging our kids' love of music before we start them in lessons, which can be drudgery at times. There is no need to rush, since the older they start the faster they progress, and I personally would only start a child younger than 7 if he/she was begging for lessons, or if I suspected that I had a child prodigy. Of course I'm going to strongly recommend studying with a teacher, at least for the first year or two, and not trying a DIY method for the beginner stage. Poor habits developed in the beginning can be very hard to break (a process which can also be demoralizing for an older child who is used to playing incorrectly). On the flip side, just two years or so of lessons with a teacher is often enough to cement good habits, on which you and your kids can build a lifetime of enjoyment if you practice regularly. In your case, I'd wait a bit to start your 5yo (unless she is begging for lessons), and spend a year or so taking lessons yourself. Having that strong background will be very helpful, even if you quit once your oldest starts. And regardless of who starts when, the initial investment in establishing strong fundamentals under the guidance of a teacher is really important, imo.

Almost everyone I know who is or has been a teacher, staff member or administrator at a public school for any reasonable length of time wholeheartedly supports my decision to homeschool. In my immediate family there are four of them (my mom, two sisters and a brother) and they are my biggest fans.

You may find this to be the case for your DS, but my DD6 (April birthday) is doing just fine with SOTW. We're six weeks in now, and at first I was thinking it might be over her head since the language was more advanced than she was used to and I could tell she wasn't paying attention very well in the first week, BUT she is still growing in her ability to listen attentively to any story without pictures, and I have seen amazing improvement even over the last few weeks, just by reminding her to listen carefully as I go along, and not giving up on it. She answers most of the narration questions correctly, which is encouraging, and she really enjoys the stories and can tell DH about them at dinnertime. One thing I realized almost immediately that hadn't occurred to me before starting, was that I need to divide the reading over two days instead of reading the whole chapter one day and doing activities on another day or whatever. Since most of the chapters have two sections anyway, and the narration questions are given for each section, it's easy to do it that way. If the map and/or coloring page in the AG goes with the first section then we'll do it the first day right after the reading - otherwise we do them both after the second section reading. Just my two cents for you to consider so you don't give up on it too quickly. :-)

I'm going to suggest Logic of English for LA if you like the idea of Spalding but feel overwhelmed by the initial learning curve for the teacher (which is pretty steep, from what I understand, though Ellie may convince you to take the plunge - LOL!). LOE is a lot more expensive (the TM, phonogram cards and workbook are $110 from RR), but it is a very similar approach, with all the lessons planned out in an open-and-go format for the teacher. There's a Foundations series in four levels for very young children (beginners), which is hot off the press, and an Essentials program, which goes much faster and was originally designed for 8-year-olds, though it's easily adaptable to younger children. Since DD6 is almost finished with OPGTR I am about to start Essentials with her and plan to use it primarily for spelling, but we may do some of the grammar as well. I'm not familiar with Foundations, but I think I saw that they also have readers that go along with it now. It's an impressive program and definitely worth a look. I will say that if I hadn't had the money to buy LOE I would have bought Spalding in a heartbeat and taken the time to figure it out. And probably sent Ellie lots of PM's - LOL!! Also, since I used a different approach for teaching reading initially, I guess I'm not really wholeheartedly endorsing a full program that I haven't used as designed, so I'm just pointing you in that direction in case it turns out to be a good fit. :-)

I use my Nook HD+ for reading all the time - I just have to hold it with both hands (like I do with many paper books I read), and that doesn't bother me at all. YMMV.

I have a Nook HD+ (9-in), and I don't ever use it one-handed, except for maybe a minute or so at a time if I'm quickly referencing something and my other hand is occupied. It's definitely too heavy for one-handed reading. I decided to sacrifice that for the larger screen, which is awesome for everything else.

I posted on here a while back about why people are so in love with RS-B in particular, and just five weeks in, I totally understand what they meant!! DD is really "getting" numbers, way more so than with RS-A. (I MUCH prefer Level B to Level A and almost wish I had just started with B, though I don't think DD would have been quite ready for the pace of B in kindergarten.) I have the old edition, but if the new edition is an improvement (in content), then it must be awesome.

Good for her! Hopefully she'll get the hang of it quickly. :-)