nah, I wouldn't do that. This isn't intended as snark or anything at all, but I've got bigger fish to fry, if you know what I mean. What you asked was a question I've been asked before and I don't take offense to it, even if it is sort of a circular argument, it's still a legit question (meaning, were I really one of those nazi anarchist people AND taking government help, I could see your point. Since I'm not, it was easy enough to answer without "belting" anyone :P)

I do so heartily agree with this. I think taxes are robbery, but another thread. But I did want to ask you something: I do agree on the whole Church/community thing should be helping out first before the government because that is what the bible declares you to do. However, what are you or do you do with someone who is a non-believer? I've been declined and have seen people declined, services due to being of the wrong faith or not believing at all. I've also seen "communities" hold up lots more restrictions than the government has, for someone in need. How would one "regulate" this kind of behavior? Obviously, the bible does tell you to extend help to the people who need it most, but how would you, as a believer, prevent a church/community from extending too much "if we give you this, you must do this"?

Because as long as I am living in this country, paying into the taxes of this country and working my rump off in this country, I will take advantage of what I can. Hating something and knowing when you need something are two different beasts. I may not like it here at all and yes, given the money I'd be out of here in a hot minute; but that doesn't mean I'm some nazi-like anarchist that goes around challenging the government every chance I could. It doesn't mean I refuse to pay my taxes or do the things I am legally responsible to do, while living here. I don't like those things, but I do those things. Mom always used to tell us, when we protested against doing chores-- "I don't care what you think about them or how much you complain about doing them, as long as you are doing what you are told while you are complaining". That's pretty much how I feel-- I may not like it here, I may want things drastically changed to make this country more likable, but I am also doing my part as a Citizen while I live here. I don't just throw my arms up and say "screw it I don't have to and they can't make me" because I know they can and will and do. So I work, I pay my taxes, I follow the law, I do what a citizen should be doing. I just don't like it. But I do it. Really, the two are not mutually exclusive. One can certainly hate something and know full well when they need something from that which they despise.

You bet your sweet bippy I would, in a heart beat and I'd use them for as long as they'd give them to me. AND I would NOT feel ashamed doing so, and neither should you Jo. You've busted your rump bringing your kids up from a horrible place, you've still got a lot of repairing to do and I see no reason why you should feel pathetic over that when you've overcome SO MUCH!!! And you've also nothing to hide as far as the government is concerned. *I* know you, and I know you are running nothing but the best kind of care you can. If you need to, take the food stamps, take the registration for daycare and get r' done.. cuz I know you are that good and worth it. :)

yeah, see that's the other problem. Because we have DH's insurance, that's our primary and medicaid is our secondary, which means we don't have to pay anything out of pocket, BUT, we still have to pay for something we can't afford. The whole medicaid system is messed up anyway. They are another rant for another time. And Joanne, I LOVE your son's quote. :)

Yep, they'll pay for the stuff if you divorce, but not as long as you are married. The whole system needs fixing.

We are already on Medicaid and my husband insurance. As for Joanne, there is a state medicaid type program in her area, but they may not financially qualify. It is very hard to qualify for it--if you are even 1cent over the limit, you get nothing.

joanne, I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone. DH is facing a possible layoff because of the stupid amendment that got voted in (don't get me started on that one)--basically, idiots voted in a $100 savings on their property taxes a year, but at the cost of cutting Teachers, Firefighters and Police Officers--not just pay, but outright firing them. Three things we need most will be cut in half because they need to cut budget in order to give these sods their $100. We've never missed a house payment, thought we were doing good, my dog is dieing, everything is astronomical, I cannot find a job anywhere (no one is hiring), and DH is about to lose his. Over $100 a year. That they'll never even miss or know was gone because they are going to raise another tax to cover the loss they have to pay out--makes sense, doesn't it? grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Does she want the negative answers too or all positive? I'm willing to answer, but I'm afraid that my answers are the complete opposite of all above. If she wants to hear the "other side", I'd be willing to explain why I feel the way I do. I'll be nice, I promise. **eta: I've never served or been called, but I just wondered if she wanted to hear the "other side" of the argument, as I *can* answer the questions.

Yep--I've had the same experience Copswife. And I know exactly to whom you referr. They are not nice at all.

Oh yes--that is a big one. I do have experience with that as well, so I know fully what you are talking about.

Then I guess I'm going to hell because that's the type of belief I subscribe to: acceptance of ALL, tolerance of ALL, no fancy dress or attitude, we **are all** one, there should be no division. (And I know no one said I was going to hell in this thread and certainly not Copswife, it was a side comment made to reflect the differences in what we believe, how the Christian belief does state I would be going to hell for believing the way I do, etc..) I'm not sure why you feel it would be inflammatory and I know I certainly won't flame you, but I am curious what you mean by "another Jesus". Are you referring to the "jesus" Copswife speaks of, the one who preaches the "accepting, come as you are, we are all one," type of religion? Is that what you feel is bad? Again, I'm just curious and I am not going to flame, I just want to know.

I'm not sure what you are saying though. What Pascal was saying was only on the subject of Belief in God. Not anything else. Yes, we lose something if we don't believe in it, but that's a very basic apples/oranges comparison.. We do have a life right now, and I fully believe and intend on living it in the here and now, not as a preparation for whatever happens after I die, because I don't believe anything happens after I die, except rot. So I don't understand what you mean by "there is something to lose if we believe in somethign that does not exist and/or abide by the rules that go along with that belief". If I truly do not believe in anything happening to me once I die, what have I really lost if I lived my life according to what I DO believe in and I lived it well?

Dayle, since you and Copswife pretty much posted the same thing, I'll address you both: so the basic difference is that with this "one world, one religion" bit, no one is going to have a choice. But right now, they do? See, and this again is not a knock on you Dayle or anyone else who is in Mission work, but my experience with Missionaries has been vastly different than what you are saying. Yes, I've seen the pictures of how they help build whole communites, hospitals, etc. Those are good. But I've also seen the "we need more money to do God's work. They live in an atheist country, they are not Christians who follow Christ" (said by one missionary who visited our church, of another country that held the Catholic belief). So I really did ask my question out of genuine curiousity because I've only seen this "good" side once, maybe twice. But I've seen the "bad" side many, many times and that's why I questioned how they were different.

Of course, I think all of us would step in if our children were in danger of being swallowed by a cult. But then again, one must define what a "cult" is to you. Is it: anything that is not of the Christian faith? Or Scientology? Or Satanism? Or Wicca? Or Paganism? Or Budhist? etc.... For ME, a cult is anything that serves the purpose to brain wash them into believing in only one way, asks for their money repeatedly to get to this one path, and asks them to sacrifice more than just their money to get it. Now I realize that this fits a certain "path". A Christian might read that and say "Well, that fits Satanism because of the sacrifice bit". A Pagan might read it as "Well that fit Christianity because "sacrifice" has a different meaning for us" etc.... It isn't all about physical hurt for me. It's also about mental hurt. By my written standard above, there is only a few "faiths" that don't break this rule. However, since I've researched several other faiths and beliefs, I might not even have a problem with some beliefs that others deem "horrible and bad". It's just a matter of how YOU deem and determine what constitutes "cult" in your mind. :)

If you believe that, of course ;) I choose to believe that if Christ is truly real, he wouldn't allow his followers to behave in the manner that some are. And I ask this not to be snarky, but genuinely curious about this as I've heard it before: You say that when Anti-Christ comes, it will lead to a "one world, one religion" and that this is a bad thing. Ok, so I understand the Anti-Christ being bad and all that, I agree with that. BUT, what I don't understand is the belief that some Christians hold is the same as "one world, one religion". These are the same Christians who do missionary work overseas and try to convert whole nations to their belief system. They even preach to these nations that their belief is a false one and only the one being preached right now is the right one. I know you all have seen this and some even support it. So my question is: How is what those missionaries are doing a good thing, while the "one world, one religion" thing spouted is a bad thing (and let's put aside the whole anti-christ part of it, because I understand what that is for, I just don't understand how these two things are different)?

Can I just "yeah what she said"? :) Very well put.

All in the name of Duty, ma'am! :D

FEAR THE TEASED BEEHIVE HAIRDO or bow to it, whichever floats your boat. :D

Yeah, it was a joke. Oprah is always closing her hands like that (the prayer thing) when she talks. They were making a joke about how she's everywhere (dun dun dun) and has so many "followers" (dun dun dun) and one should be afraid (dun dun dun) or join the "Church of O" (DUN DUN DUN).. :)

You are right Mindy, it is technically a slam :) so I will apologize for that, but I will say that I only said it that way to demonstrate my willingness to not go after anyone who has the guts to speak up (truly speak up) about what they believe in. I wasn't really trying to slam him saying that, even if I do believe that all religions are farces. I can say that though, without it being a slam because I'm not saying YOU are the farce, only what you believe in. I know that might not make sense, but I can't seem to find the right words to explain it. I suppose I could say that I don't consider Oprah a "nutcase" (and even she said that something wasn't right with Tom when she had him on her show), but someone else might due to her beliefs. So I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. See, and I actually do agree with you on this. Oprah is all about the latest fad. It's what makes her the money. However, I have watched her for a number of years (from her start almost), even if I'm not a fan of hers, and I can tell you that she's pretty much had this belief since day one, she just never put it into words. So I don't know if I'd call this current experience her "latest fad" or not. Maybe this guy just put into words what she's been trying to say all along? And I'm not sure how you define "non-conformist" but even atheists believe in something. So a non-conformist has to conform at some point in their lives, they just conform to something that isn't what the norm conforms to, making them non-conformist. So, I don't know what your faith or beliefs are, but I'd actually challenge your "encourage them to think and discern for themselves, rather than just adopt someone else's opinions", because if you are raising your kids to believe as you do, then you aren't raising them to "think and discern for themselves", kwim? That's not a knock or an attack either (so those of you at the ready, get your fingers off the neg. rep button), it's just how I see it. For someone to truly raise them to "think and discern for themselves", one would have to be completely hands off in the matter of "faith or belief". I can certainly give my opinion on the matter (to my kids) but if I want to truly raise "free-thinkers" I cannot interject my opinion and make them conform to it. That's the non-conformist in me. :) I won't ever force them to believe as I do or as someone else says they should be believing. I give them my opinion, the opinion of the other side (if I can find it) and I let **them** decide what's best for them to believe in. ;)

mindbender, I just caught this post and shot you a PM if you are still interested. Let me know.

Yup. I sure did. But that was about as successful as getting me to quit smoking. And I'm not being snarky about that either. My grandmother (who was probably the most devout out of all of us) had issues with the church and their teachings and those issues became even deeper when I wanted to have my girls baptised. I was raised to observe the whole "fish on good friday" thing but that was about it. My mother is a devout KJV follower, but considering something about my mother is another post entirely (more like a book), I don't listen to her either. I have deep rooted issues that go beyond, far beyond "being raised/baptised roman catholic", things that would take forever to type out and in the end, I might as well just get published because I'd make a fortune off of my childhood.

Like Griff said, she'd speak no matter what she's getting paid and I'm sure she's well aware of the fallout that could occur from this (especially given the one clip of her and audience members) and honestly, I don't think she cares--which speaks volumes to me. Here's why: Let's look at the rep system, I've said from day one that if you are going to give me neg. rep, sign your name; because it will mean more to me than something anonymous. I also said that I would never slam anyone who signed their name. I see what Oprah as doing/saying as the same thing, even if I were to disagree with her, I won't slam her because at least she's got the guts to stand up for what she believes in. Or to put it another way: Tom Cruise is a total nutcase and his "religion" is a farce. But I won't ever slam him for it because he's had the guts to stand up and speak up about his belief system time and again. Can Travolta or Kirsite Alley say the same? Nope. I won't slam ya Sue. ;) no reason to. But for me, that song would stop at "what if the ones who don't believe are the ones right?" because I don't believe in the whole "more at stake" or "eternal life" bit. When we die, we die. ALL of us, no matter our beliefs, will end up "fish or bug bait". I'm going to be scattered at sea, some might choose burial. Which means, I end up fish bait, you might end up dinner for some pretty fat bugs. That' sit. No "eternal life" no anything. What's done is done. When I'm dead, I'm dead. And I'm only saying this cuz you asked. :D And I'm fine with that. Just as you are fine with what you believe. And that's the beauty of the whole thing.

I guess it's just a matter of how I was raised.. my family was very open with all that fancy medical stuff, even the bad stuff, so for us, it was more of a "meh" (not a dismissive one, but a "this is what happens, nothing I can do" one) and really not that big of a deal. Complications? Yeah, I discussed those with oldest, but fortunately I had enough people that would have taken her out if it was really that bad. As it was, the worse it got was me being prepped for surgery right after the birth (tubal) and she was cool with that. But then again, my whole family finds medical things fascinating. Even now, we watch shows like "medical incredible" and stuff... so it almost appears as just another "day in the life of" for us. :)