Iwas specifically referring to when Paul and others in Acts were meeting in homes, singing praises to God, studying the Word...very simple. No formality. A very simple church indeed... But I guess it doesn't matter how we worship, just that we do. I've been unintentionally offending others here, so I hope what I said is ok. I really was just wanting to go to the New Testament Church for reference. Holly

Again, I am not defending their divisive and judgmental policies. I'm defending their right to them. And I'm fine with it if you disagree with me, but please don't say that I am being divisive. I think if anything, I am trying to unite. But obviously I'm doing a poor job of it. :tongue_smilie: I don't really know how saying everyone has the right to their own view is divisive. I really don't. Holly

Oh, oh, oh!!! This is what I was trying to say!!! Please disregard all of my previous posts and listen to this one!!!

Oh my goodness!! I am sooooo sorry!! I truly and honestly was trying to help and encourage everyone here to not worry about what others think!!! How you took that to be insulting to you, well, just wow, I am so sorry. I did NOT mean it to be awful and insulting. I meant to simply say, that if what others are doing is insulting to you, it IS possible to leave it to God!!!!! He will be the final judge! If they are horrible, hating, bigoting people, then they will answer to God for that! And I am NOT judging your faith! This has NOTHING to do with your faith!! I don't even know what sect of religion you are from. I believe that everyone has a right to believe and feel the way they do! I'm sorry, but isn't that the definition of religious tolerance? Now, if these groups were going out of their way to picket in front of your house or your church and try to take away your right of religious freedom... that is TOTALLY different! As I see it, they are simply wanting to be by themselves!!!!! If you want to have a group that excludes me because I don't agree with your position on religion, then I have no problem with that!! Why is this bad of me??? Why is it bad and insulting to your faith that I feel we all have the right to think the way we wish??!! I may think that you're wrong if you were to exclude me, just as you AND I think it's wrong of these groups to exclude others, but that's where it ends for me!! I only wanted to encourage you, try to help you see it from their point of view since I grew up that way!! You have totally misunderstood my intent. I fault myself for that, because I obviously am doing a horrible job of trying to convey my view of religious tolerance. I go to a church that is the most accepting, welcoming, non-discriminating, loving of EVERYONE, no matter their faith, views, position, race... it just doesn't matter!! Come as you are! And yet somehow I managed to offend. Ugh!!!! SO, so, so, so, so sorry! As far as calling you huffy and puffy, I am again sincerely sorry. I did NOT mean that YOU were being huffy and puffy!! I meant ANYONE in general who would get huffy and puffy over these affairs was not turning it over to God. I guess I got carried away with my words. I wasn't meaning you. Wow, I must reallllly stink at this whole blogging thing. I don't even know what to say. My head is spinning and my eyes are watering and I feel nauseous because this was so far from my intent. I guess I had better stay away from these discussions. I was simply offering my experience, having grown up in a very, very, very conservative group. I don't agree with their way of thinking, but I do know that they don't do it to be malicious, they do it because they sincerely believe that is how God is asking them to live. They may be misguided, and even wrong, but they truly love God. Are they lacking in grace? Most definitely, but I am trying to extend grace to them, but maybe I'm just being stupid. Maybe I am simple minded and inconsistent and everything else others have flung at me. I was trying to extend my experiences to you, helping you see it from their point of view, but I have obviously failed, and for that I am sorry. Please accept my apology for not realizing I was being offensive. We must just have completely different ways of saying and understanding things...that is the problem with these forums. Words (at least mine) sometimes come across wrong. I am also one who tries to see things from everyone's point of view, and that comes across wrong also. I do hope you can forgive me and also forgive those who are not gracious enough to include you and others into their lives. They really are just lacking in grace. But then, we are all sinners... that's why we need the Lord. Hoping you understand me better, and that I REALLY do love anyone and everyone, Holly in KY

:iagree:Like it!! Hmmmm, what's it been three hundred and some posts, and none is any closer to agreeing than before? :001_huh::001_smile::tongue_smilie: Mayhaps, perhaps, just sayin' here, doesn't all of this kind of support why some churches/groups/co-ops/etc have SOF? Maybe to avoid this kind of, well, "discussion" every week? Maybe it's not to keep others out, but bring likeminded people together? Just sayin'... We all have our little square that we have drawn on to stand and say, this is what I believe. More than likely, a lot of our squares are going to disagree with other squares. So we can either stand on our squares and get mad at the other square for disagreeing, or we can practice religious tolerance and say, well, that's too bad we don't agree, but I guess that's ok, and move on down the road... ??? Am I being too simple? Maybe it's not easy, but... just sayin'! Lovin' y'all in Christ!! Holly in KY

I didn't read all of the responses, but my sister had a co-worker whose first child died during a home-birth. I don't know exactly what happened and I'm not saying it wouldn't have been any different in a hospital. However, if that outcome does happen, I think you have to be willing to accept that outcome. I personally would never do a home birth simply because if something did go wrong, I would always wonder if I made the wrong decision. I couldn't live with that, but that's me. If it's a strong conviction, for whatever reason, to have a home birth, then you have to face the fact that you have to be ok with a bad outcome and not second guess yourself. I think God has given us the wonderful gift of medicine and great doctors in the U.S., so for me, well, I think you get what my decision would be! But everyone's different! You have to really get to why it is you want to have a home birth vs a hospital birth, and be 100% at peace with it. Blessings! Holly in KY

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then! No biggie!:001_smile: Happy day! Holly in beautiful bluegrass country!

And maybe I should have said "many" religious establishments have made a mockery, or made it into a man-made machine, but not all. I just don't like "religion" because it seems to have morphed the church into what this man or that man thinks it should be like. That's all!

Yes, it still exists, but I don't see how it looks anything like the New Testament Church! Just my opinion!!:001_smile: No biggie if you disagree!

I would say that at age 8, if he really struggles with this, then why not have him do lots of copywork from good pieces of literature--a short paragraph a day. Also, maybe a couple of dictation sentences a week. This could also double for writing and spelling. He'll learn spelling from copywork, and for dictation, I like to have my boys read it first, look at it, and if they miss the spelling when I dictate to them, then I have them study that word and write it a few times. My right brain boy I have write the word in block letters and let him decorate the letters however he wants (robot arms, etc). For grammar, I like Easy Grammar (although I'm giving MCT a whirl this year!--yes I gave in to peer pressure) since it's very straight forward. A lot of "pro's" suggest not even bothering with real grammar until they are in 5th grade or so...??? maybe a good idea for him? I have never used Queen's Language Lessons, but I hear they are very gentle, have a lot of copywork and picture study, and follows the Charlotte Mason method. I've looked at them several times and think they look nice for that age group. Now that mine are going into 6th, I'm wanting a bit more structure, but if I were to do it all over again, I would probably go that route. If you want a seperate, workbook type of spelling book, I like Sequential Spelling, although I'm not a huge fan of spelling programs. I've gone back and forth on this. I have one son who is a natural speller--awesome speller!-- and one who struggles, well, at least compared to the other kiddo! I have really never found spelling programs to be any more beneficial than copywork/dictation. ??? Not saying one way or another, just my experience. Have fun! Holly in KY

Okay, I TOTALLY do NOT want to get into a debate... I just want to throw something out there--food for thought perhaps. Instead of comparing Protestants and Catholics, and where the Protestants and Lutherans and Catholics and all that come from, I would like to take it back further. I'm talking about the New Testament Church further. Forget Luther, the Pope, Wycliff, all of them. (And no, I'm not literally saying to forget them...we need to understand history...I know, please don't take this the wrong way...) However, go back to the Early Church--the church in Acts. That is how our church ought to look like. Excited, on fire, people being saved--awesome!! Religious establishments have made a mockery out of what God had intended for His church. Love, love, LOVE that our church doesn't look to any man in history, other than the God-Man Jesus Christ and what HE established in the New Testament Church!! And I am NOT going to get sucked into a debate, because it's really quite simple!! Read the book of ACTS!! :001_smile: Blessings from KY on a beautiful sunny day!! Holly

Well, I think perhaps we are more on the same p age than we realize. We both agree that it is wrong and hurtful. However, the only point I was trying to make is that I don't want to ALSO be divisive by doing the same thing they're doing--pointing the finger at them and blaming them for being the "bad guy." I know it makes God sad that there are so many splits in His church, but His grace covers it all, and some day He'll make it right. In the meantime, I would rather focus on what God has for me to do than to whine that another group of Christians think I'm wrong and won't let me play with them...and I'm not saying you're doing this, just that it happens. It's sad that they won't let me "play" with them, but I truly believe that if more Christians focused on Christ, and not on what others are doing wrong, then there would be waaaaaay less divisions in the church. Make sense? or are we arguing in circles? :lol: Hope you have a great day! Blessings on a sunny day in the beautiful Bluegrass state! Holly

Faith is divisive. What you believe will offend someone somewhere. There's no way around it. Jesus offended many....so many that the masses crucified Him. But instead of taking it personally and getting all huffy and puffy, Jesus asked the Father to forgive them. Wow. Shouldn't we be following His example? Holly in KY

Heehee! Try 23 years of that! I remember in the 5th grade when Miami Vice was all the rage, the guys in our school weren't allowed pushing their shirt sleeves up to their elbows because that was supposedly trying to look like the stars on Miami Vice! Wowsers! The things that stick in a kid's head! It does make for some good laughs 20 years later though!

I definitely agree! I do think it's wrong to treat people that way. However, I personally don't want to get caught up with feeling about them the way I hate that they feel about me. :001_huh: Did that make any sense? :tongue_smilie: It's wrong how they are critical of others; I don't want to be that way, but I also want to extend them grace because I know I need it ALL of the time! I'm wrong so often, and God is constantly showing me where I am lacking maturity and understanding. And because God has given me His patience when I've been wrong, how can I be so critical of others when God has given me so much grace?! I'm not trying to change your mind; maybe just sharing with you what I've learned? You can agree or not; no biggie! :001_smile: We're all a work in progress! (Or at least I am!) Holly in KY

Okay, I'm adding again. I definitely agree with you. This does cause pain, hurt, division amongst Christians, and it's very sad. Satan loves extremes. Extreme liberty and extreme legalism. However, we don't have to get caught up in that hurt. A pastor of ours once said, that if we are dead to ourselves, the way Christ tells us to be, then we can not be offended. Can a dead man be offended? Can he be hurt? Can he feel insulted? If we die to ourselves and give our emotions and feelings to Christ, then He takes on that hurt and pain for us. We do not have to bear it. That is why I say we shouldn't be offended when others think we're wrong. That's actually in a way being prideful...and I say that fully understanding where you're coming from...I've felt this way mannnny times in my life. It's taken God a long time to show me that if I am focusing on Him and what He has for me, then it just doesn't matter what others think or say. What is important is that I obey Him and put Him first...not myself or my feelings. I hope this encourages you. I've been there! Holly in KY

Okay, maybe I can clarify (I ate some food and am sort of thinking better...maybe....:D). First: I don't think we necessarily have to respect their beliefs, just their rights to their beliefs. Second: Their way of thinking doesn't have to make sense to us. If they want to be isolated, then let them. I really, really don't know why you'd want to be part of a group that will probably annoy you anyway! :tongue_smilie: (Trust me on this!) Third: Pray that God will lead you to the right group of homeschoolers where God can use you the way that He wants to! They are the ones saying you are not good enough, not God. Don't worry about what others say. Such freedom!! If you are confident in what you believe, then go somewhere of like thinking! You don't want to get caught up in other people's rules and restrictions. You have liberty in Christ. Does that make any sense?? :001_smile: Blessings! Holly in KY

You are a very wise woman to run! :lol: Truly, we all do things out of our own conviction...it's just that some convictions seem so cwazy! Thank the Lord for His patience and grace!

Heehee!! That's too funny! Yes, we Protestants have found a way to bring the rules right back in!! I look at the pictures from my highschool cheerleading days, and I wonder how on earth we were ever able to do any jumps with the ten pounds of material hanging off of our waists! Some of us (never me, of course!) would roll the cullottes (heavens, how do you spell that ugly word!) at the waist when the teachers weren't around, and unroll them when they were! That brought it from the mid-shin to high-shin... Oh, so silly! Holly in KY :D

I can't eat Greek yogurt!! Am I the only one who gets a majorly screwed up stomach from this stuff??! Loved the taste, but I think it's the pro-biotics in it. I had the same problem with Activia. ??? What's up with that??? Holly in KY

Umm, okay, maybe "respect" was the wrong word. Maybe "not care" would be better? I see your point. Let me say this...you have to remember that the majority of these strict groups that have strict SOF to join are not just exclusionary of varying views of Christianity. They are exclusionary if you (as a woman) wear pants or jeans or a skirt above the bottom of the knee, or a low cut shirt (more than 3 fingers from the collar bone--the rule from my high school), or yada-yada-yada. They will seperate over the style of music...no drum beat allowed! And heavens, you'd better not slide your notes when singing!! And don't even begin to think about dancing--not even the four square!! They seperate over versions--KJV only!! I, according to them, read the terrible, horrible NIV!! When my husband and I got married and left this kind of thinking behind, I used to get offended when the in-laws and parents and others from my old church insinuated that we were out of God's will because we weren't using the King James, or that we (gulp) listened to contemporary Christian music, or that we didn't go to an "approved" church. I tried to make them see that I was right and in God's will and that they were WRONG!! Slowly, however, God has shown me that I was doing the very thing that I criticized them for...causing division and trying to be the "right" one. I now leave the "right" or "wrong" to God. Each one answers to God. I had to come to realize that we are all trying to live for Him. So I guess all I was saying is that we shouldn't get offended or bent out of shape just because others may think we're wrong. Maybe "respect" isn't necessarily what we have to do, but simply shrug our shoulders. Actually, better yet, not even look towards what they say or think. We're to keep our eyes on Christ...Satan soooo wants to get us all distracted and bickering and fighting! God bless!! Holly in KY

Wanted to add quickly to my last ramble... If a Catholic or JW or Methodist, whomever... were to tell me that I wasn't a Christian because I don't believe the same as they...who cares!! Why should that bother me?? I am amazed at how many people get so horribly offended by others who believe differently! Should I be ducking tomatoes here? I mean, realllly!!!??? What does it matter what a PERSON or GROUP says?! Isn't what God says what matters? Since when did someone else's belief determine where I spend eternity? I just don't get it! (Now if you come after me to throw me in jail because I believe differently, well then, that's another matter!) But I certainly don't care a whit what someone else believes to be true about my eternal destination, because it has no bearing on it whatsoever!! Be confident in Whose you are!! And if you aren't, then go to the Bible to find your answers! Don't go lookin' at a religious affiliation!! Happy posting!!:lol: Holly in KY

:iagree: Yes, this is exactly why they have a specific SOF. Having come from an extremely conservative, fundamentalist background (think Bob Jones University), I can attest to this. I am still conservative in my doctrinal beliefs; however, God has shown me that I am to extend grace to others who may believe differently, just as He has extended His grace to me. However, I can say that they (meaning the ultra-conservative, seperating over pretty much everything) are truly, 100% trying to live a life that is holy and pleasing to God---not for salvation, but because of what Christ did for us... a reasonable response to the sacrifice that Christ made. They do not intend to be hurtful to others who believe differently; they simply, whole-heartedly believe they are living the way God has asked them to live. They do not view it as a matter of who is "right" or "wrong," but as a matter of obeying what they believe to be true. And part of what they believe as being true is to seperate from others who are not like-minded. Now, the "non-like-minded" people can be offended by this, OR......they can realize that this is simply part of what this group of people believe. And I think we can all agree that we should all have freedom to believe as each of us sees fit. If someone who is Catholic tells me I'm wrong in my beliefs (which they most probably would!) I am completely not offended by this! They have the right to believe any way they want, as do I! If they want to have a group with Catholics only--I am completely fine with this also! If they want to print up a SOF that is their point of view--go for it!! I completely understand that this is because they believe differently than I, and that's ok!! It is God who does the work in each of our hearts, and it is to Him alone that we answer. I won't answer to an athiest or a Lutheran or Anglican or JW...I'll answer to God and God alone. A Muslum would most definitely tell me that I am going to hell. I wouldn't be offended by that. Why should I? Nobody's beliefs should offend me. I am to test my faith on God's Word, and nothing else! So, I guess what I'm saying is, instead of being offended by others when their views exclude you, why not respect it? Why not embrace it as an amazing freedom that we have in this country? Now, I'm not saying that I personally think seperatism is ok. But what I am saying is, if someone feels it is wrong to affiliate with others of differing views, then that is part of their faith and it should be respected and not taken offensively. It's not about you; it's about their beliefs. Does that make any sense? Hopefully it does. We were robbed yesterday :tongue_smilie: and I'm a bit loopy!! Loving the freedom we have in Christ, and the freedom in this country:001_smile:, Holly in KY Mama to 11yo twin boys :D:D

I'm not anywhere near going through this with our kids, but I thought I'd throw in my experience. I graduated from a Christian highschool back in '90 that was NOT accredited. I then went to Bob Jones University, which at that time was not accredited either due to seperation of church and state concerns. (It is now accredited.) However, I did not go the entier 4 years at BJU d/t costs (you can't get a government loan when it is not accredited), so about 8 years ago I went in to speak with an advisor at Ohio State University about going back to school. When she found out that my high school was not accredited, she immediately told me I needed my GED. I was shocked! But then she said that the only exception was if I scored over a 20 on my ACT (I think that's what it was--maybe it was no lower than 18 in any category). When I showed her my transcript with my ACT/SAT scores (forget what they were, but were higher than required), she chilled and said, "Oh, you're fine." Good grief! So apparently you don't need an accredited diploma or GED as long as your test scores meet their requirements, which I assume vary from state to state. Anyhow, that's been my experience. Good luck! Holly in KY

Ohhh, you are not alone! I have twin boys, and from the get-go (Kindergarten), one has loved school and one has hated ANYTHING that has to do with school. Thank goodness for the one that loved school, because I would most certainly have thought that I was failing as a teacher by the way the "school hater" child reacted to everything. We're now going into the 6th grade, and it really hasn't changed much. :tongue_smilie: He is very hands-on, like my hubby, while my other son and I are very much couch potatoes with a book! :001_smile: I recently read an article about "right brained" and "left brained" and now really see how they are just wired differently. I have tried to incorporate more hands-on learning (ugh) and have tried many different curricula to help him, but ultimately, he just doesn't want to do the work. I swear he's allergic to reading! And ya know...right brained or not, he's got to learn to read and understand it! My dh is right brained, and he somewhat struggled through school also. However, he is now a successful engineering project manager. So I'm constantly asking him how I should be teaching our right brained child, and he has basically said that regardless of him liking school or not, he just has to buckle down and do the work. It doesn't matter if he hates it or not, he's got to learn how to apply himself. Sure, hands-on is nice, but that's not how life is...it's not all fun and games. So while finding the right learning style is important, he still has to learn how to read and write and do math. I suppose math lends itself to hands-on, but the reading and writing, well, he's just gotta buck up and do it!! :lol: Not every child is going to beg to do school...I don't care what the marketing team of every curriculum is telling you! So, stick to your guns, and tell him he doesn't have to like it, but he DOES have to do it!! Have fun! :lol: Holly in KY