Well, yes. All our righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight. And I'm sure I'm also sinning tons, including in my (alleged) good works. Good works just have nothing to do with our standing before God. Only Christ, and His work, counts. But that's not license for anyone to say, screw it, I won't even try. Good works do good things in this world - they just aren't getting us to heaven.

Because a) they are not fulfilling the most important commandment - love the Lord your God - at all, and b) they are not loving their neighbors perfectly. They have fallen short, just like all of us. It's not so much that nothing we do affects what happens to us, but that we have no clue why some and not others. We know that we all have sinned and fallen short, and that we are saved by faith, not according to our works. We know that God desires all to be saved. We know that God does all the saving - we do *nothing*. And we know that not all are saved. And this makes *no sense* to human reasoning. And any attempts to make it make sense end up bending or breaking part of it in order to get a rational-to-humans explanation. So I *don't* know how it works, only that apparently it does.

*Nothing* is required of *us* in order to be saved. *Nothing*. We are saved by faith, *not* through (our) works. And accepting Jesus is a work. Period. We need faith in Jesus to be saved, this is true. But *we* can do nothing to get this faith. *God* creates that faith in us, *God* gives us the desire to turn to Jesus, to confess our sins, to believe in Him. We are saved by *Jesus'* work, not ours.

Well, depends what you mean by sin, doesn't it ;). For me, sin is anything outside the will of God. People whose relationship with God is broken do *everything* outside of God's will be definition, b/c if you aren't in relationship with God, you are *incapable* of being in His will or even wanting to be in His will. Now, that doesn't mean that they are all sadistic murderers. Everyone has natural law written on their hearts, and people - including those who are not saved - follow it at times. They do nice things for their neighbors, they do good things in this world, they help people. They want to be good people. And many of them *are* good people. But they are still apart from God, still unrighteous. Being a good person is not what saves you. Because no matter how good we are, we can't fix our broken relationship with God. Only God can do that. And He does it without respect for what we have done or not done.

Agree totally with paragraphs 1 and 3. Agree in para 2 that if we have no works, we should worry, but disagree that the presence/absence of works is what gives assurance of faith. We agree that if our works say, oh, there's a problem here, then our response is to turn to Christ. But what if you look at your works and think you're in good shape? Is that *assurance* of salvation? Most certainly not! Our works have *nothing* to do with our being saved. If you are looking to your works for *confirmation* of your salvation, you are in danger of *trusting* in those works for salvation. While lack of works can indicate a problem, presence of works means *nothing*. Exhortations to look to our works are meant to turn us back to Jesus. Because our works will *never*, ever be good enough, and an honest appraisal will show that. We *all* have a lack of good works. We need to look to Jesus for our salvation *and* our assurance of salvation. We are saved because of Jesus, and our assurance of salvation is in Him. Only someone who is saved can cry out to Jesus in the first place - we cry, we can be assured that not only *will* He answer, but that He *already has*.

I'm Lutheran, and I both agree and disagree with (what I understand of) the EO position. I do believe in a now and not yet duality, but not in the same way, I think. I believe that at the moment God first restored our relationship, He restored it 100%, forgave all sins, past, present, and future, justified us, sanctified us, all of it, right then. But we don't *experience* it all right then, as we are still in this fallen world and subject to sin. Our *experience* of it is a process - but even as we experience the ups and downs, the objective reality is that we are already there. So when we cry out for God to forgive our sins - Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner (great prayer :thumbup:) - He forgives them right then and there, yet they were already forgiven. Our objective salvation was not dependent on our confessing our sins right there - if we hadn't, they would still be forgiven - but our subjective experience of having them forgiven by God right then is still *real*, God really gave us His grace *right then*, forgave us our sins that were already forgiven, and He does it for *us*. Same with Communion - when we partake of communion, Christ is really present and our sins are really forgiven - even though *God* didn't need to "re"forgive them ;), *we* needed to experience that forgiveness anew.

God holds us to a standard of absolute perfection. Failure to uphold it means death. And we've all failed. Thanks be to God He sent Jesus! My prayer is not, "God, do unto me as I do to others" :eek:, but rather, "God, help me do unto others the way you've done unto me" :grouphug:.

Yeah, but when you feel like you might be failing the test, the answer isn't "oh crap, I better work harder or I'm not saved", or "oh crap, I must not be saved," but, "Oh Jesus, save me."

IMO, they're both flawed teachings (and both teach works righteousness). We can't accept Christ unless and until He accepts us first. Our accepting Christ, inviting Jesus into our heart, is a *response* to salvation, not the cause of it. And, salvation isn't "fire insurance" - salvation is God restoring our broken relationship, so we can be in fellowship with Him. We are now free to be who we are meant to be, free to do God's will - we don't *want* to be in sin anymore. But that leads to the other side - that our salvation rests on doing God's will, than anyone who isn't sufficiently righteous (seeming) must not be saved, must not be right with God. That puts the focus on our works, not Christ and *His* work. We are saved by faith, not works - and that means maintaining our faith is likewise not based on works. God creates faith, God sustains faith - it's all God. It's very true that if our life does not show much fruit, that is a concern. But the answer to sin is, as always, *Christ* and *His* work. If you feel convicted of sin, feel like you aren't obeying God like you ought, then *turn to Christ*. "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Agree with the bolded. WRT God's expectations of us, they are what they've always been - be perfect. And certainly once our relationship with God is restored, we are free *to do His will* - we *want* to do His will. But so long as we are in this fallen world, we will fall short. And Christ's death covers all our imperfections - both before and after God restored our relationship. We obey God out of love, in joyful response to being saved - *not* because we "have to". We *get to* :). Hey, I agree with you on something :tongue_smilie:.

I take it the exact opposite, myself - that we are praying that God would help us forgive others the way that He forgives us. Because if forgives others is necessary for salvation, it can only be done by God. And wrt the free will issue, I don't have as high a view as some. Before we are saved, our will is bound to sin, and we can do nothing *but* sin (we have our choice of sin, though, I suppose ;)). And after we are saved, our will is bound to God - we are free to do what we were created to do, be in relationship with God, do His will. But as long as we live in this fallen world, we are still bound to sin, do things we don't want to do, don't do the things we want to do. I'm not sure how much control *we* - as opposed to God - have on this.

I agree with a lot of this, but not the bolded. If we aren't living as God would have us, we should NOT under any circumstances look to ourselves for signs of true faith. *We*, and our actions, are not the source of faith, and looking to them for proof leads to self-righteousness or despair. Rather, we should look to the author and perfecter of our faith, the One who saved us in the first place, for help. The only help for sin is Jesus - and that goes for Christians, too. If we feel like are failing in our Christian walk, the answer is *not* do more, try harder, but Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.

Yeah, but saying that all Christians are saved in a going to heaven way, but aren't necessarily right with God is effectively saying that there are tiers of Christians. I really don't know how the Biblical idea of treasures in heaven plays out (though that article rubs me completely the wrong way - wow, feel the legalism and works righteousness) but it certainly doesn't mean that people who did lots of good works are more right with God than people who do less.

Satan doesn't believe in Jesus, he knows that Jesus exists and can save us. And yes, intellectual knowledge doesn't save. But while God saves us out of His love, love on our part is a response to salvation and a fruit of faith. If love and showing love is *necessary* for maintaining salvation, then you *are* saying you work your way to heaven, at least in part.

You get into heaven by God saving you - forgiving sins, creating and maintaining faith - and as a result, as a fruit of that faith God worked in you, you are able to believe in Jesus. But we are incapable of believing in Jesus without having saving faith in the first place. Honestly, I have no idea what heavenly rewards look like. But it's not a case of all Christians are saved, but some are more saved than others.

The Gospel is the good news that God has had mercy upon us sinners, who cannot save ourselves, and through baptism (and His Word and communion) gives us His grace, which connects us to Christ's death and resurrection, forgives our sins, and creates faith. In response, we are able, through the Holy Spirit, to do good works, including confessing our sins and repenting of them.

But no one gets into heaven without being right with God. Our broken relationship with God is either restored or it isn't - you can't be "kinda right" with God any more than you can be kinda pregnant.

Sorry, but I *hate* this line of thinking. We should look to *Jesus* for proof of salvation, not ourselves and our works. We are saved because of *Jesus*, and when we are doubting our faith, we need to look to *Jesus*. The Gospel is for Christians, too. Just as we are not saved by our works, we do not remain saved by our works, and our works are not proof of our salvation. Not following God's commands is a sin, sure enough, and the only solution is Christ. Don't measure up after salvation? Neither did Paul - oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this bondage of sin? And the answer - thanks be to Christ!

Sanctification - becoming more Christlike - is from God, too. And in the Lord's Prayer, we are praying for *God* to change us - both by forgiving our sins, and enabling us to forgive others' sins. Of course we will fall short of the standard - we're fallen people in a fallen world. Praise be to God that His grace is sufficient for us!

The thing is, accepting Jesus is a work, and truly believing in Him is a work. Neither is the *cause* of faith, but the *fruit* of faith.

Yes. Salvation is all God - *He* forgives sins, *He* creates faith, *He* keeps us in faith. Even our belief in Christ is a *fruit* of faith, not the *cause* of faith. God is bigger than our sins, and that goes for sins committed after being saved, too.

Sort of emotionally spewed all over the thread in my last response, and kinda sidestepped the actual point :doh. Had first dd at 25, 2nd at 27, and 3rd (and last) at 30. Aside from wanting one more, I'm good with being done at 30. Grandparents are still young and active, and several great-grandparents are still alive. Pgs were physically pretty easy, and I've got plenty of energy, can lug around toddlers with no problem -I'm good with the timing all around.

Barring an accidental surprise, I had my last one at 30. I'm still processing it, tbh. Not the age so much as only having three. But we had medical issues with ds0 - rH incompatibility - that will only get worse with each subsequent pg. Dh and I have decided to not risk another. But I really wanted four :(. Just not enough to risk the complications - both rH and potential preemie issues. On the bright side, it will be easier to hs the way I want to without more babies/toddlers underfoot. And we can travel easier. But it still burns me to have everyone assume we are stopping b/c we finally got our boy. I want to scream that we might not be having any more, but it's *not* b/c we've completed our set or something. But I don't really want to go into everything with acquaintances and random strangers.

I'll just open my big feminist mouth and say that *I* don't get why all the "bf inhibits the sexual use of breasts" focuses on *male* pleasure :confused:. They're *my* breasts - why is all the focus on dh's pleasure in touching them and not mine in being touched? Seems like it should be the other way around, myself ;). And ftr, bf'ing hasn't inhibited either of us ;). (And now, cheeks flaming wildly, I'll slink away from the computer :tongue_smilie:.)

I actually have read the opposite, that you can only use 20% of the space on the Nook for non-B&N-purchased material, but there are no such restrictions on the Kindle. Haven't fact-checked it, though. I have a Kindle 3, and I'm very pleased with it. I've put tons of free ebooks on it, including some pdfs, with no problems. (I only have 2 paid books, actually, of some 200 on there.) While dh's iPad is really better for pdfs (as pretty much every review I read said) - the bigger screen *is* nice - I can read them just fine on my Kindle, and I prefer the e-ink for reading anyway. And converting pdfs to the Kindle format works pretty well.