MFW-skip Ecc and do CTG for 2nd/3rd?

[Meadowlark]

I've heard a few people say NOT to do ECC after ADV because ECC doesn't give a good feel for the 5 year cycle. Some say ECC is really best for older kids because of the books chosen. And some just don't plain like it.

 

Is CTG appropriate then for a 2nd/3rd grader? I'm not super familiar with this time period, and do not like to expose my kids to anything violent too early.

[Donna A.]

Okay, first of all, remember that MFW is intended for multiple ages, and therefore you have multiple books included in each package, some targeted at older kids, and some targeted at younger kids.  That means there's something there for everyone, so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater because some of the books are above a 2nd grader's head. ;)

 

That said, let me see if I can describe to you the ones that might be questionable.  It might be that you could have a great year using ECC with a 2nd/3rd grader if you just skip or tweak the books intended for older kids. :)

 

There are quite a few fun things to do with little kids in ECC -- music, books and videos, food, crafts, games (the geography game on colored cardstock comes in the student sheets set) -- and even the Bible portion of it is age-appropriate because you're reading through a big chunk of the book of Matthew.  Hero Tales, also scheduled during Bible time, is targeted at younger kids, and each reading is pretty short.  You also have copywork assignments for character traits in that book which describe the people you read about, so those are definitely age-appropriate, and hopefully, character building.

 

The missionary biographies from YWAM, which are in the Deluxe package for ECC, may be hard for little kids to follow along (and also somewhat graphic in places because let's face it, they deal a lot with the hardships of missionaries in tribal regions, persecutions, etc.).  I also think the writing style is more geared to older kids.  However, you can find shorter, less graphic missionary bios for younger kids....  Here's a couple of links to some that you might be interested in to replace the ones MFW sells:

 

Missionary stories for children:  http://www.graceandtruthbooks.com/category/missionary-stories-for-children

 

Missionary adventure stories:  http://www.graceandtruthbooks.com/category/the-adventure-series

 

Another book of concern to some parents which comes in the package is Exploring World Geography.  This is intended to be used for additional research for older children, so if you do ECC with 2nd/3rd graders or below, you would skip this book altogether. 

 

Window on the World you would want to skim or summarize for them.  Just briefly tell a bit about how many people in that culture (whatever's assigned each week) don't worship the true God, but instead worship XYZ.  Let's pray for them, and pray that God will send missionaries to share the Truth with them and open their hearts.

 

Properties of Ecosystems is another one that you'll either summarize or skip.  I (as the teacher) would take a look at the lesson assigned, and then get library books (see the Book Basket list in the back of the manual) on whatever science topics are being studied that week (trees, the forest, oceans, whatever it is).  Even though many younger kids won't "grasp" the PoE book if you try to read it TO them, it's a great resource for YOU to emphasize different points in the lesson.

 

Some of the mapwork is *very* detailed, so younger kids might not be able to do it.  I would show a map in one of our atlases to my younger dd and we would talk about it, but I wouldn't have her actually *do* the mapwork.  Biomes, for examples.  That was hard one, especially since you're adding to the same map a few different times.  But you can adapt their mapwork according to ability -- either giving them help as needed, letting them just "color" a map vs. getting real detailed about it, or doing the labeling as needed for them.  But this can also be another opportunity for copywork, which enables handwriting and spelling skills, and attention to detail:  You write out the labels on a white board, and let them copy it onto their own maps.

 

Definitely don't get the 7th & 8th grade supplement package!

 

Everything else in ECC should be fine for 2nd and 3rd graders.  You might want to get The Complete Book of Animals, which is optional. 

 

Now as for CTG.... It's primarily Bible reading.  Marie schedules "chunks" of the Old Testament at the elementary level, leaving out very graphic sections such as details about Sodom and Gomorrah (high schools students doing MFW AHL will read the entire OT cover to cover), but then she has "Advanced" reading assignments for older elementary students doing CTG, so you would skip those with a 2nd/3rd grader.  She has a lot of "secular" books (optional) listed in Book Basket for the time period, and includes warnings next to those that deal with sensitive issues. 

 

I did not read The Children's Homer to my young children.  We did read The Trojan Horse, though.  It's a Step 5 reader giving a very "safe" version of the story.

 

Journey Through the Bible is a fantastic resource to have on hand.  Nice pictures showing historical and archeological details about the places and people you read of in the Bible. 

 

You won't use Streams with kids that young.... Either you read ahead so that you can summarize more info about the history you're learning, or skip it altogether.  It's intended for older kids and parents as an additional resource.

 

Everything else in CTG should be fine. :) 

 

You can't go wrong either way.  It just depends on what topic(s) you want to study first in each of those content subjects (History, Bible, and Science).  And either way, there are certain books you won't use (or will just skim or summarize) with younger kids because of the fact that's a multi-level program.  Remember that when going through the cycle, they will come back to the beginning of the cycle in 4 or 5 years and do them again in greater depth, so whatever they "miss" now is fine.... let them learn and enjoy from the age-appropriate resources that are intended for them NOW.  :)

 

 

[Donna A.]

Oh, and I will say that it's true ECC may not give a good feel for the history cycle.  ECC is about "space" and people groups and the cultures in which they live.  CTG and above are moving through "time".  So it just feels different.  If you do ECC and don't fall in love with it, that doesn't mean you won't enjoy the history years. 

 

But then again, because ECC is different, you can kinda' have "fun" with it and not feel like you're missing something really significant in history. :)  It's really a great introduction to history... but you won't die or ruin your children if you wait until later to do it, either. ;)

 

 

[lea_lpz]

I am planning to use ECC for my dd for either 3rd or 4th grade.  My son will be either a tag along 1st grader or if in 2nd, he'll be fully joining the family circle.  My ideas are to basically make it as similar in approach as k, 1st, and 2nd in that those mfw years follow Charlotte Mason.  We'll be emphasizing the hands on projects and fun stuff and nature walks that year versus trying to do stuff geared towards older kids.  If we get to hit ECC again for 6/8 grade, then it won't be a waste if we didn't use some of the stuff geared towards older kids at all.  I will probably get some of the supplemental resources and supplements for younger kids when we do that year, like the Complete Book of Animals, and the cookbook, and drawing animals.  I think the way its written, and I can't say for sure because I don't own a copy and haven't done it, so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe you can easily tailor it to the younger crowd or the older ones, based on what you chose to do with.  The booklist will have tons of books listed for younger siblings, and kids on the younger end.  We've had great success finding books on the booklist at our library from mfw k & 1st.  

[Meadowlark]

Wow ladies, this was SO helpful. Thanks Donna for that incredibly thorough explanation. It was just what I was looking for.

 

I guess I have a few thoughts after reading through all of that great info.

 

With all of the great curriculum coming out, and a lot of stuff going digital, will I STAY with MFW? I'm really not sure. I'm not sure I'm comfortable teaching just parts of a curriculum if I'm not sure if I'll come back to it. Does that make sense? I have 5 kids close together so the multi- age learning appeals to me, but not if I end up tweaking too much. I'm just not sure about a program that I have to omit/change books. I would like the resources to be age appropriate for the most part. I want the books to be the best of the best, ya know?

 

But, having said that, if a program is really terrific, I don't mind tweaking a bit. I have so many thoughts, but I'm having a hard time getting them out tonite, Mostly I popped in to say thank you and I'll keep pondering this for sure? I have awhile to decide but I'm definitely a planner :-)

[Peaceful Isle]

I tried CTG on my 2nd and 4th graders a few years ago. So much of it was over their heads. They are smart girls, but, wow..we ended up switching to Story of the World 1. It worked better for my girls and was easier to actually get done.

[cbollin]

Wow ladies, this was SO helpful. Thanks Donna for that incredibly thorough explanation. It was just what I was looking for.

 

I guess I have a few thoughts after reading through all of that great info.

 

With all of the great curriculum coming out, and a lot of stuff going digital, will I STAY with MFW? I'm really not sure. I'm not sure I'm comfortable teaching just parts of a curriculum if I'm not sure if I'll come back to it. Does that make sense? I have 5 kids close together so the multi- age learning appeals to me, but not if I end up tweaking too much. I'm just not sure about a program that I have to omit/change books. I would like the resources to be age appropriate for the most part. I want the books to be the best of the best, ya know?

 

But, having said that, if a program is really terrific, I don't mind tweaking a bit. I have so many thoughts, but I'm having a hard time getting them out tonite, Mostly I popped in to say thank you and I'll keep pondering this for sure? I have awhile to decide but I'm definitely a planner :-)

 

I've used mfw for 10 years and going....  for the most part, I have used all of the stuff in the package even in elementary years.   I might not teach it the exact same way to a 2nd grader as I teach it to a 7th grader though. or to 3rd vs. 6th.

 

Some concrete examples: 

in ctg... the first time I taught it, my oldest was 3rd grade.   We did ECC in 2nd because ADV was not yet written.

CTG, oldest in 3rd grade:  instead of reading all of Children's Homer, I read parts, summarized other sections and didn't feel the need to read the whole book.   2nd time in CTG with 8th and 5th grader - got an audio version with the text in front of us.. did whole thing

CTG - first time: Streams of Civ:   I did not use it as a read aloud novel.   I taught the material that was scheduled for the day.

CTG 2nd time: Streams of Civ:  8th grader read it.  5th grade: I taught the material that was scheduled and read more of the passages

 

ECC: first time I did ECC....  oldest was in 2nd grade, adv not yet written..  We liked it a lot.   Prop of Eco was not yet written so we have one book different.   My kid was able to do a lot of the program with me teaching it.  I left out the "advanced" assignments eventually.  I got better at teaching.  Even the "research book" World Geography workbook...   we did some of those pages together.  I saw it as opportunity to demonostrate at age appropriately level how to look up information.   lots of ECC worked for us - crafts, cooking, book basket, praying, character stuff.  I know it says "skip this book", but I didn't see a need to skip a book that we could do one or two pages for each continent and do them together and learn how to look up stuff.  It was fun to play a matching game "find this city".   Or here...  can you find the island on your big wall world map that is at latitude this and longittude that?  (and then we'd do it together.)  No one told me that I was supposed to "skip it". (well, ok yes, the intro of the manual did say that even in my original 2002 manual... but I took that to mean, don't hand it over and walk away and say do your worksheet.....  I took it as "if you are doing to do a page from here... do it together)

 

 

2nd time we did ECC:  7th and 4th grader... Prop of Eco was months from publication.. but we got the book near the end of the school year....  I'll come back to that issue...  program was good.  really enjoyed that year.

3rd time in ECC is right now with just my youngest.   My youngest has autism. Is delayed in academics due to learning disabilities with that autism.  She is 5th/6th grade age... working mostly on 2nd/3rd grade level.   I am able to use Prop of Ecosystems with her in small ways.  Now granted...   it's my youngest and I've learned a lot in the last 12-13 years of teaching...   But I use the book to learn how to learn from a textbook.  We underline together.  We get our worksheet out and fill it in together.  I use it for advancing her reading comprehension and narration skills with informational texts. 

yes, I scale back for her due to special needs.

 

 

When I did ECC second time... Prop of Eco had just come out in ECC..  I ended up drafting a set of notes to help others with general ideas how to adjust that textbook. MFW still has that draft in their archives... here

http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11822&p=80957&hilit=niche#p80957

wasn't that nice of them to leave it in spite of draft form.  I'm sorry for the typos.. I can't fix those as I don't have an account there any longer.

 

anyway... upshot is:   no one program is going to work for everyone.  No one style of teaching/learning works all the time.  I enjoyed ECC three different times.  No, it's not like the history cycles.  It's modern cultures and geography.  I didn't always read everything word for word in the books..... I used them to teach information, and for opportunities to learn how to look up info.   and we enjoyed some yummy recipes along the way. 

 

CTG:  ok, my oldest was in 3rd grade when I did it the first time... from that experience....  I've sorta wished she was a little older when we did CTG but that was because I was trying to make her "too advanced" if that makes sense.

 

I guess what I"m rambling about, is that you may not end up skipping all that much each day when they are younger.  But some books are not meant to be "read this out loud to the student".  that's my biggest take away after 10 years of using mfw.....   sometimes my kids gets glazed looks, and that's when I stop reading out loud and begin to teach the material.......

 

anyway...  the room is getting colder with the arctic blast. I need to log out and find a way to put more blankets on the doors and windows....

[cbollin]

real quick... donna wrote "Some of the mapwork is *very* detailed, so younger kids might not be able to do it.  I would show a map in one of our atlases to my younger dd and we would talk about it, but I wouldn't have her actually *do* the mapwork.  Biomes, for examples.  That was hard one, especially since you're adding to the same map a few different times.  But you can adapt their mapwork according to ability -- either giving them help as needed, letting them just "color" a map vs. getting real detailed about it, or doing the labeling as needed for them.  But this can also be another opportunity for copywork, which enables handwriting and spelling skills, and attention to detail:  You write out the labels on a white board, and let them copy it onto their own maps."

 

yes.. some of the Prop of Eco map work was harder to understand than others.  My youngest and I worked together to get a very general idea and to have handwriing of labels, and following directions.  so I didnt' ask her to read the directions.. I asked her to follow what I said... and at the end when we wrote the label of the map again....  "we just made a map of biomes.  and some biomes are rainforest, temperate forest..  and polar regions".    that's plenty for now at this age..  she'll get this again in her adaptive high school years....

 

now to find those blankets :)

[Caviar]

Hoping to begin MFW ECC in the fall.  Will have 4th and 3rd grader, along with K.  I figure the K can listen to a lot and be involved in crafts, and that a separate program would not be necessary.  I'm most concerned about the science not being that strong for 3rd and 4th graders.  I'm VERY interested in Truth in Science.  Has anyone used Truth in Science, and would it be possible to fit it into the ECC year?  Or, if I would use TIS, what history/social studies/civics program would you recommend that would cover world history similar to ECC for elementary grades?  I need something that's planned for me.

[Amy M]

I've heard a few people say NOT to do ECC after ADV because ECC doesn't give a good feel for the 5 year cycle. Some say ECC is really best for older kids because of the books chosen. And some just don't plain like it.

 

Is CTG appropriate then for a 2nd/3rd grader? I'm not super familiar with this time period, and do not like to expose my kids to anything violent too early.

 

Well, I'm not sure, but I'm thinking of skipping ECC and doing it at the end of the cycle rather than the beginning, so that if we repeat, we repeat history instead of geography. It looks like it will work better for our line up. This allows me to do the geo year once with all of my kids. I do think it's very important, but we are doing map work right now with SOTW, and I plan to continue. I believe MFW includes mapwork the other historical years, but I don't know on that. We also live internationally and have quite a few discussions about other religions and live full-time in a totally different culture, so that helps. :)

 

However, I worry sometimes about putting my kids into CTG at the younger end of the spectrum. (They'd be a young 4th and 2nd.) As far as the time period itself, I definitely think it's appropriate for 2nd-3rd graders. We studied it in 1st grade with SOTW1. If anything is too violent, you can easily skip. There's so much there. We skipped 3 lessons in SOTW. That said, I am not sure how I'll like Streams, so I anticipate that I may be tweaking CTG more than the other years. I think you'll have to decide whether you agree with the philosophy of spending a year on geography and other cultures first--getting a bigger picture of the world, not having so much America-myopia, getting a heart for God's people around the world, and His work...or if you can incorporate those important ideas throughout the history curriculum as you go. JMO--I didn't take the time to read the other great thoughts here.

[cbollin]

Hoping to begin MFW ECC in the fall.  Will have 4th and 3rd grader, along with K.  I figure the K can listen to a lot and be involved in crafts, and that a separate program would not be necessary.  I'm most concerned about the science not being that strong for 3rd and 4th graders.  I'm VERY interested in Truth in Science.  Has anyone used Truth in Science, and would it be possible to fit it into the ECC year?  Or, if I would use TIS, what history/social studies/civics program would you recommend that would cover world history similar to ECC for elementary grades?  I need something that's planned for me.

 

welcome along to the forum. :) 

 

I haven't used Truth in Science.  took a quick look at it to see if I could help with your question.  but wasn't sure on that.

 

I think usually people are concerned that the book Prop of Ecosystems in ECC is almost "too much" for grade 3.   It has plenty of worldview like TIS does.  Covers science topics related to botany, biomes, basics of earth science -- scheduled in ECC to match the topics that make sense for what else you are studying in geography.  For example, while studying Brazil, you study botany and science related to rain forest.  Or Mexico... and Saudi Arabia... good time to do the units on deserts.

 

People certainly can change science and do what they want to do in science while using ECC.  but normally, I hear people concerned that Prop of Ecosystems is almost too strong for 3rd grader because it is a textbook for multi ages.

 

I know my family is a little on the odd ball side in that we actually have liked the science in MFW's elementary.  My dh is a phd chemist and he's been happy with the progression and content.

 

hopefully though someone reading this thread has used/seen Truth in Science and can answer that specifically