Literary Mom Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 (edited) Background: -Like many here, I have been intrigued with TOG since I first heard about it, not too far into our homeschooling journey which began 3.5 years ago when my oldest (then in the middle of 1st grade) requested that I homeschool her. I have spent hours reading most of the TOG threads here and just returned from the Great Homeschool Convention in Long Beach where I heard Marcia Somerville (TOG creator) speak - I went to both of her workshops and that's what renewed my interest in the curriculum. At the same time, I also thoroughly enjoyed Susan Wise Bauer's workshops, and was encouraged to continue with TWTM. -We just wrapped up our school year and our first four-year cycle of SOTW / WTM (my oldest) -My children will be entering 5th, 3rd, and 1st grades, so Upper Grammar (maybe some Dialectic) and Lower Grammar Questions: (I do know about the buffet concept and that you don't do everything, but still wondering about how to implement it in these ways) How compatible is TOG with WTM? Does it follow the same question and narration format? (I'm having trouble seeing that with the samples - I see questions only for dialectic and I see writing exercises, but I can't tell if they correlate). Does anyone use SOTW at the spine? Whether using SOTW as the spine or the TOG spine, is it helpful to use the SOTW AG questions & verbal narration followed by written or is the equivalent of that in TOG? Is it realistic to schedule TOG with math, science, grammar, spelling, Latin, Spanish, and intro to Logic? (the latter two just for my 5th grader) If so, how do you do it without taking up your whole day or getting behind in the four-year cycle? Is there art and music appreciation at the UG & LG level at all? I believe I read that it's touched on in the D level. If so, how do you schedule that in along with all of the subjects listed above? How much / what do you read aloud to your UG & LG students? Do you read anything aloud to your D students? ...As it may be obvious, I'm rather attached to the WTM way of doing SOTW, but I also had some real struggles with my oldest and narration (verbal & written), especially in our 2nd and 3rd years. I can't imagine experiencing that with my middle child, while also schooling my oldest and youngest. So I guess I'm looking for some hand holding, but also afraid of losing the benefits of the rigors of going soley with WTM/SOTW. At the same time, TOG seems like more work in some ways - less concentrated and more spread out. Any input to help me decide would be great - I don't want to inflict the three week sample on my children when we've just finished up our school year (we really need a rest period). I have a coupon that has to be used in the next two weeks, so that's part of why I want to decide soon - if I get the full year program, we can get all the instructional DVDs ($50 value) free or free shipping if we buy the print version. Can anyone comment on how helpful those DVDs are? Edited May 30, 2012 by Elle M. added stuff I forgot, changed mistakes thanks to comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted May 29, 2012 Author Share Posted May 29, 2012 :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted May 29, 2012 Author Share Posted May 29, 2012 If this is too specific or unclear, can you please (pretty please), visit the other, more general (not just TOG) thread I started: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3958433#post3958433 Thanks! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyP Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 -My children will be entering 5th, 3rd, and 1st grades - they are all working above their age/grades, so I will probably have one in each level - Dialectic, Upper Grammar, Lower Grammar Questions: (I do know about the buffet concept and that you don't do everything, but still wondering about how to implement it in these ways) How compatible is TOG with WTM? Does it follow the same question and narration format? (I'm having trouble seeing that with the samples - I see questions only for dialectic and I see writing exercises, but I can't tell if they correlate). I would say no, BUT you could easily make it that way. I don't use TOG's writing assignments and there are no comprehension questions below the dialectic level. I have my kids write narrations in the form of a notebook page each week. I prefer WTM writing for the younger kids but hope to use TOG writing when my oldest is in 5th. Does anyone use SOTW at the spine? Not I. Whether using SOTW as the spine or the TOG spine, is it helpful to use the SOTW AG questions & verbal narration followed by written or is the equivalent of that in TOG? I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you thinking of using the AG with TOG - even if you don't use SOTW? I can't see that working. Is it realistic to schedule TOG with math, science, grammar, spelling, Latin, Spanish, and intro to Logic? (the latter two just for my 5th grader) If so, how do you do it without taking up your whole day or getting behind in the four-year cycle? Is is realistic, yes. Will it take up your whole day, possibly. It doesn't have to, but I would be prepared for history to take a decent chunk of your day. (this is where the buffet comes in) Is there art and music appreciation at the UG & LG level at all? I believe I read that it's touched on in the D level. If so, how do you schedule that in along with all of the subjects listed above? Yes, it is. Touched on lightly in UG/LG and more at the D/R level. Year 1 will have very little because there is very little from that time frame. How much / what do you read aloud to your UG & LG students? Do you read anything aloud to your D students? I read the core history and sometimes the in-depth aloud. Lit is assigned to them. I usually put the in-depth, alternative, whatever I can get from the library into a "book basket" for them to choose from for free reading. ...As it may be obvious, I'm rather attached to the WTM way of doing SOTW, but I also had some real struggles with my oldest and narration (verbal & written), especially in our 2nd and 3rd years. I can't imagine experiencing that with my middle child, while also schooling my oldest and youngest. So I guess I'm looking for some hand holding, but also afraid of losing the benefits of the rigors of going soley with WTM/SOTW. At the same time, TOG seems like more work in some ways - less concentrated and more spread out. Any input to help me decide would be great - I don't want to inflict the three week sample on my children when we've just finished up our school year (we really need a rest period). I have a coupon that has to be used in the next two weeks, so that's part of why I want to decide soon - if I get the full year program, we can get all the instructional DVDs ($50 value) free or free shipping if we buy the print version. Can anyone comment on how helpful those DVDs are? I hope that helps. I found TOG before TWTM, so I have a bit of a hard time comparing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyMama Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I thought I saw answers to your post earlier today...? :confused: Anyhow, we are using TOG, with SOTW as the spine, for my two first graders. I cannot help you much with the older ones, and I'm only about one month into first grade. But I hated to see your post go un-answered. ;) My kids do two narrations a week on history- one on the SOTW chapter Monday AM and one on a living history book on Wednesday AM. We do a lot of reading over snack and lunch and in the afternoon and at bedtime, but we don't narrate on everything. We have history block on Monday and Wednesday afternoons, one for SOTW activity pages (maps) and the other for crafts and projects. As of now, the art appreciation piece hasn't shown up much, but we're in the Ancients, so I guess that makes sense. For the LG/UG, I don't see a lot of narration prompts, but I guess I could be missing them. I just use the ones in the SOTW AG. One thing- I think LG is for grades 1-3 and UG is for grades 4-6. So I am not sure you'd be looking at Dialectic now anyway. As for fitting all the subjects in: we do phonics and spelling, writing (WWE but after K I consider copywork to be handwriting,) math, literature and grammar (FLL), history and science. I teach piano lessons and have picked up an art appreciation curriculum which we haven't cracked open yet. We only do latin as part of the CC memory work we do during calendar time every morning. We average 4-6 hours of school a day (today two hours of that was a nature walk while journaling, so it's not all seated at desks) and my kids get recesses and one hour quiet time every afternoon. So with older kids, I think you could probably add the rest of your things- spanish, typing, logic- and still get it all done. But I may eat my words once my kids are older. :D Not sure if that helps at all. At minimum it can bump your thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 I really appreciate both of your responses - very helpful input that I need to mull over. As for using the AG if not using SOTW as the spine, I meant if using it as an alternate, as it's listed in TOG on the schedule, i.e. on the lessons that one decides to do SOTW, do they use the AG. While TOG lists UG as 4-6 and Dialectic as 6-9 (overlapping since it's "stages not ages"), I read enough user experiences to determine that if you have an advanced 5th grader, you may want to D to keep them challenged...or even bounce back and forth between both levels. That flexibility is one thing that draws me to TOG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyP Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Re the AG - That makes more sense. That is probably doable, hopefully someone else will comment. AFA the levels go, the flexibility is one of the things I love about TOG. Just a couple thoughts...First, I wouldn't order books until you have TOG in your hands. Looking at it will give you a better idea as far as which books to purchase for which level. Second, I find my kids working at the lower age range for history and the upper age range for literature. My dd would not have gotten much out of the UG history readings this year, but she did UG lit without a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 ...First, I wouldn't order books until you have TOG in your hands. Looking at it will give you a better idea as far as which books to purchase for which level. Second, I find my kids working at the lower age range for history and the upper age range for literature. My dd would not have gotten much out of the UG history readings this year, but she did UG lit without a problem. Thanks. I had heard that first part repeated in the threads so I was planning to wait - I also try to use the library as much as possible (and I have built up quite a used book collection - trying to play "librarian" this summer so I can see what I have). The second part makes sense - I have a feeling it would be that way with my kids also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anmom Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 SOTW is scheduled in TOG in the ug level. I use it for other levels too. I have loved using TOG and the WTM style of learning. I Meld the two. It does probably take a little more time than others, but we enjoy it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SophiaH Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I hope it's doable to schedule all that with TOG because that's what we'll be doing, except Greek instead of Spanish! I've already got a rough schedule going, making sure that my time frames are roughly similar to my model curricula--WTM, LCC, and Memoria Press. I have kids who will be in similar levels--1 in UG/D and 2 in LG. I used TOG with my oldest when she was in 1st, fizzled out, then tried it again in 2nd, and am glad to be able to go back to it now that we're entering a stage where TOG is more useful. I already have much of the LG lit for YR 1 so I'm going to go ahead and buy both UG and D literature because in looking through the selections, the D level is more what my dd is currently reading. And it's all I can do to keep enough books around for her! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 I hope it's doable to schedule all that with TOG because that's what we'll be doing, except Greek instead of Spanish! I've already got a rough schedule going, making sure that my time frames are roughly similar to my model curricula--WTM, LCC, and Memoria Press. I have kids who will be in similar levels--1 in UG/D and 2 in LG. I used TOG with my oldest when she was in 1st, fizzled out, then tried it again in 2nd, and am glad to be able to go back to it now that we're entering a stage where TOG is more useful. I already have much of the LG lit for YR 1 so I'm going to go ahead and buy both UG and D literature because in looking through the selections, the D level is more what my dd is currently reading. And it's all I can do to keep enough books around for her! We'll have to keep connected, since it does sound like we're attempting a very similar mission! :) I've decided to purchase the DE of TOG so I can get the updates (they're "smoothing" the first year and the first unit of that is supposed to come out this summer). Are you doing Ancients too? Now I'm just trying to decide whether to buy the full year or just the first unit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SophiaH Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Yes, we're back around to Ancients. I went with the DE also. I was going to buy just the first unit, but I ended up getting the whole year. For one, I prefer to plan a semester at a time instead of just 9 weeks, but also I got more freebies when I bought the entire year through the buying guide (plus the small discount). :tongue_smilie: Our nearest library is not all that near, so I like to buy all my books. When I added up all the books I'll want to buy, it only came to $200! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 Yes, we're back around to Ancients. I went with the DE also. I was going to buy just the first unit, but I ended up getting the whole year. For one, I prefer to plan a semester at a time instead of just 9 weeks, but also I got more freebies when I bought the entire year through the buying guide (plus the small discount). :tongue_smilie: Our nearest library is not all that near, so I like to buy all my books. When I added up all the books I'll want to buy, it only came to $200! :) I went ahead and bought the full year also - can't resist those freebies! That's encouraging about the price of the books. I have to inventory my home library to see which ones we already have (there's bound to be some since I'm a literary packrat). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Resurrecting in case anyone can give me more feedback on my original post, now that I'm getting down to the nitty gritty of actually applying this (hoping to start next week)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&M Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Background: -Like many here, I have been intrigued with TOG since I first heard about it, not too far into our homeschooling journey which began 3.5 years ago when my oldest (then in the middle of 1st grade) requested that I homeschool her. I have spent hours reading most of the TOG threads here and just returned from the Great Homeschool Convention in Long Beach where I heard Marcia Somerville (TOG creator) speak - I went to both of her workshops and that's what renewed my interest in the curriculum. At the same time, I also thoroughly enjoyed Susan Wise Bauer's workshops, and was encouraged to continue with TWTM. -We just wrapped up our school year and our first four-year cycle of SOTW / WTM (my oldest) -My children will be entering 5th, 3rd, and 1st grades, so Upper Grammar (maybe some Dialectic) and Lower Grammar Questions: (I do know about the buffet concept and that you don't do everything, but still wondering about how to implement it in these ways) How compatible is TOG with WTM? Does it follow the same question and narration format? (I'm having trouble seeing that with the samples - I see questions only for dialectic and I see writing exercises, but I can't tell if they correlate). Does anyone use SOTW at the spine? Whether using SOTW as the spine or the TOG spine, is it helpful to use the SOTW AG questions & verbal narration followed by written or is the equivalent of that in TOG? Is it realistic to schedule TOG with math, science, grammar, spelling, Latin, Spanish, and intro to Logic? (the latter two just for my 5th grader) If so, how do you do it without taking up your whole day or getting behind in the four-year cycle? Is there art and music appreciation at the UG & LG level at all? I believe I read that it's touched on in the D level. If so, how do you schedule that in along with all of the subjects listed above? How much / what do you read aloud to your UG & LG students? Do you read anything aloud to your D students? ...As it may be obvious, I'm rather attached to the WTM way of doing SOTW, but I also had some real struggles with my oldest and narration (verbal & written), especially in our 2nd and 3rd years. I can't imagine experiencing that with my middle child, while also schooling my oldest and youngest. So I guess I'm looking for some hand holding, but also afraid of losing the benefits of the rigors of going soley with WTM/SOTW. At the same time, TOG seems like more work in some ways - less concentrated and more spread out. Any input to help me decide would be great - I don't want to inflict the three week sample on my children when we've just finished up our school year (we really need a rest period). I have a coupon that has to be used in the next two weeks, so that's part of why I want to decide soon - if I get the full year program, we can get all the instructional DVDs ($50 value) free or free shipping if we buy the print version. Can anyone comment on how helpful those DVDs are? I just wrote a very long reply that has disappeared into the vapor! Now I have to put littles to bed so I will try to answer briefly. You can do a TOG/WTM mix, you must not let either dictate what is best for your children. Pick the gems and leave the rest behind. Do narrations and read alouds with your little ones, read and discuss with your older one or just read aloud and discuss. Have him write something, sometimes you can use the SAP's sometimes use the WTM logic stage questions. Don't jump into D level too soon, don't overwhelm your children by doing too much. Don't make yourself crazy worrying that you're "not doing it right"! Use TOG like you do the library. When you go to the library you browse, you pick the things that will work for your children. You never try to bring the whole library home with you. The books will be there the next time you visit, just so TOG will be there for your next round of history and you will pick up the threads you dropped this time. I am making a concerted effort to follow my own advice :lol::lol:. The DVD's are great, so are SWB's talks, I use them often to keep me on track. If you really want to try TOG, I say take the plunge! I have put off buying things I really wanted and just drove myself crazy until I tried it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehogs4 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have an 11 yo - I am entering my 2nd year with TOG and interestingly, I am moving more toward TWTM method of doing history than I have in the past, largely because of TOG, so yes, I do think they are very compatible. I have had to pare back this year, though. I had a 5th grader reading at a higher level so I moved him to D last year because he asked to. While he handled the work without a lot of struggle, I discovered that he was really burnt out at the end of the school year and needed a long break this summer to recover. I have since made the decision to back off a bit and not push him forward. I would love to answer your questions in more depth, but my eyes are drooping and bed is calling...I'll get back to them in the morning, or I may not make much sense here... stand by... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehogs4 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Okay, it's morning and my head is clear. I agree wholehearted with the above poster who said use TOG like you use the library. :iagree:Last year I did everything--used TOG as my spine, tried WA (didn't like it and quickly dropped it. We are WWE / WWS devotees here), felt panicky if it appeared that one good book was going to be missed or one activity. I wanted to leave no stone unturned--it really is that good. BUT--as I said of my son, he was really burnt out at the end of the school year, and the same was probably doubly true of me. So I learned my lesson. I am backing way off and using the TOG core selections and not doing many of the in-depth readings. I am focusing way more on the literature and much, much more on WWS this year, as I see how essential this is going to be later. Next year I am going to use SOTW with my dd7 (who will be 8 then) when we cover ancients. I love TOG--I think I have figured out how to use it more as a road map and not as a destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 My 6yo has read everything to himself so far except Maia of Thebes and Story of the World (we are on week 8 of year 1 now). I have the books used for multiple weeks and check out everything the library has of the primary and alternate readings for lower and upper grammar each week and he reads them. I told him he doesn't have to read them all, he can pick, but so far he has. So, most of It is done independently of me. We do SOTW Activity Guide for some additional readings and narrations. Each Friday, I have an activity/art/craft planned using TOG's suggestions, SOTW's suggestion, or Artistic Pursuits Book 1. We also discuss what he's read on Fridays. I look through the books he's read and the teacher's notes and talk with him about what he learned that week. We don't use Writing Aids, and aren't using the Bible/Worldview for Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Thank you all for this helpful feedback - it definitely speaks to what I'm trying to do. My challenge with making SOTW my spine is rearranging all of TOG since the chapters don't correlate. I really don't want to read SOTW out of order or do them both in order and have them not relate to each other. Thoughts on this? Or does anyone have a list of TOG literature arranged in Chronological (SOTW) order? Within TOG, it gives a way to do it chronologically (at least the first unit), but even when I did that, it still wasn't aligning with SOTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professormom Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I was struggling with the same thing with the SOTW. I ended up looking through TOG and realizing that most of it is covered, just not in order. While I like order (a lot!), I decided we are just going to follow SOTW as it is laid out in TOG (I know, I am really throwing caution to the wind, right?). I realized I was probably spending time nitpicking on something that wouldn't matter. One of the reasons I switched to TOG this year is for the big picture. I know they are strong that way. So I am going to do it as scheduled and see how it goes. It isn't easy but I am using it as a learning experience... For me:lol: Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Literary Mom Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 That sounds smart, but I decided to do things the hard way :lol: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=4238163&postcount=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Second, I find my kids working at the lower age range for history and the upper age range for literature. My dd would not have gotten much out of the UG history readings this year, but she did UG lit without a problem. I am the one with a weird kid. She is in 5th grade and is doing all D literature but struggles with the history and does mostly UG history. :) I use SOTW with TOG and use the SOTW AG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebrindam Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Is there a timeline with TOG or does anyone use one? If so, which one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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