Crosspost: Fran Rutherford Guides or Omnibus for Great Books?

[LNC]

We are using Truthquest for history. I love it and the connections my children make using the commentary. But, we want to start incorporating Great Books for literature starting with the Ancient guides next year. I'm thinking about coming up with my own book list using WTM lists. Then, coming up with my own discussion using Spark Guides and Invitation to the Classics.

 

Would you recommend another guide through the Great Books? Would Spark Guides and Invitation to the Classics be enough?

 

Would you recommend:

1. Omnibus 1-6 (I would use books from both 1&4 for Ancients, but obviously not the entire program or schedule)

 

2. Or the Fran Rutherford guides from Thomas Aquinas, I've seen these recommended here and they look great for my purposes

http://search.aquinasandmore.com/res...ran+rutherford

(Type Fran Rutherford in the store's search engine to look at her guides)

[Aggie]

We are using Omnibus here and loving it. It is thorough and challenging.

 

I've not seen Rutherford's, though.

[LNC]

Do you think Omnibus is appropriate for a pick and choose the books to study approach?

[Kfamily]

We plan on an eclectic approach using WTM, Fran Rutherford guides, Invitation to the Classics and CM ideas too. :D

We won't be using the first Fran Rutherford guide (Ancient Greeks) until 9th grade and dd will be starting 8th this fall, but I wanted them ahead of time so that I could start reading and using the guide.

The Omnibus books are tempting but I think we'll be fine the way we are. I haven't been down this road yet either so of course this is just a plan (with no experience to back it up :001_smile:).

[Nicole M]

We plan on an eclectic approach using WTM, Fran Rutherford guides, Invitation to the Classics and CM ideas too. :D

We won't be using the first Fran Rutherford guide (Ancient Greeks) until 9th grade and dd will be starting 8th this fall, but I wanted them ahead of time so that I could start reading and using the guide.

The Omnibus books are tempting but I think we'll be fine the way we are. I haven't been down this road yet either so of course this is just a plan (with no experience to back it up :001_smile:).

 

Do the Rutherford guides have a schedule, similar to the lightning literature guides? And do they have writing assignments?

[Kfamily]

No, there are no schedules or writing assignments, but I think the Questions for Further Thought that are after every book, canto, etc. could be used for writing assignments. I plan on using some of them for this purpose. There are vocabulary words for every book, canto, etc. as well.

[In The Great White North]

Did you buy both books or just the Teacher Manual (Rutherford)?

[Kfamily]

I have both books but I do think you could use the TM only. It really depends on what you would prefer. She writes this in the Instructions to the Student and Teacher (page iii):

 

" It is recommended that each student have his own student book in which to write and that the teacher guide be at the disposal of the teacher only. It is suggested that a book be purchased for each student. Not only will it facilitate writing the answers to the questions, it will become a valuable resource for other high school and college classes."

 

 

Here is another quote from that page:

 

" The question-and-answer method was chosen for the following reasons:

1. The questions help the student focus on the significant details. Reading an original work or translation and then reading a summary of that same work does not challenge the student to stop and ponder the ideas and truths contained among the words.

 

2. The student can experience in a small way the method used by the philosopher Socrates to search for truth."

(this continues on with more explanation of this...)

 

Also, there is often but not always a Research Topic at the end of a work. These could also serve well for essays or more.

[LNC]

I have both books but I do think you could use the TM only. It really depends on what you would prefer. She writes this in the Instructions to the Student and Teacher (page iii):

 

" It is recommended that each student have his own student book in which to write and that the teacher guide be at the disposal of the teacher only. It is suggested that a book be purchased for each student. Not only will it facilitate writing the answers to the questions, it will become a valuable resource for other high school and college classes."

 

 

Here is another quote from that page:

 

" The question-and-answer method was chosen for the following reasons:

1. The questions help the student focus on the significant details. Reading an original work or translation and then reading a summary of that same work does not challenge the student to stop and ponder the ideas and truths contained among the words.

 

2. The student can experience in a small way the method used by the philosopher Socrates to search for truth."

(this continues on with more explanation of this...)

 

Also, there is often but not always a Research Topic at the end of a work. These could also serve well for essays or more.

 

 

You don't write in the student book do you? This looks really good and more what I'm looking for. I hope she write guides for early modern and modern great books too!

[Kfamily]

Yes, your student would write in his/her own book. I think she is suggesting that since their book would have all of the questions and their answers, it would then be a great resource for them later as they go further into high school and college in which to refer back.

[PeterPan]

I have Omnibus 1 and 2 and several of the Rutherford guides, which I bought to start prepping for 7th (another year yet). Is your dc rising 6th or rising 7th? I guess the difficulty for you is there are no online samples of Rutherford and no sample toc so you can see the differences for yourself. They're TOTALLY different, and I don't know how to say it better than that. I like them both, but Omnibus is more out there, theoretical, delving into stuff (what does this mean, how can we extend it to government or living or this or that), where Rutherford is still pretty straightforward. I like her focus on character, and I like how thorough she is. I'm just saying if you WANT OMNIBUS, it's not Omnibus. And the level of thought in O1 is not the same as O4. The Rutherford guides overlap significantly with O1 and O4, when you do the Greek and Roman guides together. But some of those selections would be, to my mind, overkill for a 7th grader. In other words, while you can take O1 and use it straight with a 7th grader, I don't see that you could with Rutherford. And really, I don't know if that would even be what you want. Rutherford is really not what I think of as a GB study. To me (and this is just me, someone who hasn't done a GB study with a student obviously) it's a bunch of comprehension questions, some vocab, and a few nice extension questions focusing on character or motive. But it has none of the profundity of O1. I don't want to step on somebody's toes, because maybe someone else is bringing that further level of thought to it as they use it. To me, when I look at Rutherford I see nice comprehension guides. I think they have a place, which is why I like them. But to me that place is before the deeper discussion. It gives you a way to quantify the reading assignment and ensure comprehension before you get together to discuss. In the VP school they read aloud TOGETHER all the Omnibus reading assignments. Think about that. Are we really likely to do that? I doubt we will, lol. So I thorough comprehension guide is a terrific check. But it's not a replacement or equivalent to Omnibus, not even close.

 

There, is that brash enough? Didn't want to step on anyone's toes, but I wanted to make sure that was clear. If I had a scanner, I'd send you a page or two so you could see for yourself. If you like Omnibus and want Omnibus, do Omnibus and then add/subtract things as you wish. That's where I am at the moment.

[LNC]

I have Omnibus 1 and 2 and several of the Rutherford guides, which I bought to start prepping for 7th (another year yet). Is your dc rising 6th or rising 7th? I guess the difficulty for you is there are no online samples of Rutherford and no sample toc so you can see the differences for yourself. They're TOTALLY different, and I don't know how to say it better than that. I like them both, but Omnibus is more out there, theoretical, delving into stuff (what does this mean, how can we extend it to government or living or this or that), where Rutherford is still pretty straightforward. I like her focus on character, and I like how thorough she is. I'm just saying if you WANT OMNIBUS, it's not Omnibus. And the level of thought in O1 is not the same as O4. The Rutherford guides overlap significantly with O1 and O4, when you do the Greek and Roman guides together. But some of those selections would be, to my mind, overkill for a 7th grader. In other words, while you can take O1 and use it straight with a 7th grader, I don't see that you could with Rutherford. And really, I don't know if that would even be what you want. Rutherford is really not what I think of as a GB study. To me (and this is just me, someone who hasn't done a GB study with a student obviously) it's a bunch of comprehension questions, some vocab, and a few nice extension questions focusing on character or motive. But it has none of the profundity of O1. I don't want to step on somebody's toes, because maybe someone else is bringing that further level of thought to it as they use it. To me, when I look at Rutherford I see nice comprehension guides. I think they have a place, which is why I like them. But to me that place is before the deeper discussion. It gives you a way to quantify the reading assignment and ensure comprehension before you get together to discuss. In the VP school they read aloud TOGETHER all the Omnibus reading assignments. Think about that. Are we really likely to do that? I doubt we will, lol. So I thorough comprehension guide is a terrific check. But it's not a replacement or equivalent to Omnibus, not even close.

 

There, is that brash enough? Didn't want to step on anyone's toes, but I wanted to make sure that was clear. If I had a scanner, I'd send you a page or two so you could see for yourself. If you like Omnibus and want Omnibus, do Omnibus and then add/subtract things as you wish. That's where I am at the moment.

 

I'm looking ahead for our next year. 7th and 5th grade ancients. It will be their 2nd time to study ancients. They have read a ton of children's titles on Iliad, Odyssey, myths etc. I think they will be ready to move on a few great books with audiobooks and guides to help us. I want to include great books now - bc we will spend 5 years on a cycle with Truthquest History.

 

I'm not sure Omnibus is what I want. I just want to read 5-8 whole great books for literature to correspond with our history studies each year. More as they get older. I want comprehension questions, vocab and literary analysis. Maybe some introductory notes, but not spoonfed. I'll use Invitation to the Classics and Sparknotes when available. I would like to choose works that are in both Invitation to the Classics (bc I really like their author intros and recs for furthur study) and the Rutherford guides.

 

I'll need a guide for the early modern and modern great books if there isn't a guide like the Rutherford guide, but I think there will be more Sparknotes guides available for the titles I choose from those later time periods.

 

Thanks for the help! Omnibus always tempts me when I'm in future planning mode. They are beautiful and well organized books. I just love Truthquest so much and the results we are getting. I'll for sure stick with that, just need more for literature/great books.

[PeterPan]

Have you gotten the TQ ancients guides yet? I have them and have used them for book lists, but I've never been tempted to use them as a spine for study, not the ancients ones. You might look at them yourself before you decide, since that seems to be your driving factor.

 

You could put your 7th grader into an online GB course and let your 5th grader just do the history stuff at home. There's going to be a big emotional gap between what a 7th grader is ready to ponder and a 5th grader. And really, I think Rutherford is kind of dense to hand to either of those. It's really aimed at high schoolers. Doing it in 7th would be a stretch. We're talking small doses. A 5th grader doesn't need to read the original of the Odyssey, kwim?