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Looking for unbiasedOld vs.Young Earth book AND a question for Old Earth creationists


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#1 HappyGrace

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 11:59 AM

I've been having trouble finding a simple book for dd10 that discusses both sides of the debate in a way that just presents the points of each side in a way that is nonjudgmental to the other side. (I would GREATLY appreciate any suggestions!)

And my question for Old Earth creationists, in case there is not such a book: can you please mention how Old Earth creationists provide Scripturally for the fact that there was no death before Adam and Eve. We understand the scientific viewpoint and some other things about Old Earth creationism, but we're seeking to understand what the viewpoint is on that particular point.

I sincerely sincerely do NOT want to DEBATE-in fact, I will thank you in advance for any responses and not post on this thread again. I can understand why Christians have arrived at BOTH points of view (Old vs. Young Earth) and feel it should not be a divisive issue amongst brothers and sisters in Christ. My only motive in asking this question is that I just was taught one way and I'm trying to better understand the other way so I can present it intelligently to my dd. And again, feel free to point me to any simple but helpful books if that would make it easier and avoid conflict. Thanks so much!!!

#2 Parrothead

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:40 PM

And my question for Old Earth creationists, in case there is not such a book: can you please mention how Old Earth creationists provide Scripturally for the fact that there was no death before Adam and Eve. We understand the scientific viewpoint and some other things about Old Earth creationism, but we're seeking to understand what the viewpoint is on that particular point.

How could there have been death before Adam and Eve if Adam and Eve where the first people?

Genesis 3 22-23 which says Adam must not be allowed to eat from the tree of life and live forever. So there had to be death at some point. Otherwise the eating from the tree of life wouldn't be a problem. and there wouldn't have been a banishment from the garden. (verse 24)

Where does the Bible say that there was no death before the fall?

As far as I know the first death mentioned in the Bible is when Cain killed Abel.

#3 OhElizabeth

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:28 PM

Happy, you might try looking for some of the BJU science books. Their earth science samples at www.bjup.com have the info on viewpoints that you're looking for. That might be enough to get you started. As you say, the issue of death before the Fall is a criticism of the Old Earth viewpoint. As a cautionary thought, only my personal suggestion, I would be careful how you present things. She's still very young, and you might come to realize later these viewpoints were not so interchangeable as you earlier thought. I would teach what you believe and merely state the other viewpoints as fact. But that's just me. I'm pretty cautious when teaching, because I don't want her coming out confused. I tell anything, but I don't let it become vague or a toss-up for the conclusion.

#4 BikeBookBread

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:30 PM

I'm not going to become a part of this debate further because I'm not fully equipped (I'm just learning myself). However, I have found the Reasons to Believe website to be very informative and helpful. RTB is a Christian ministry that ascribes to an ancient universe/old earth creation model. I know several of Dr. Ross's books have been published by the Navigators (NavPress). He is not just some "out there" guy. There are many book and free article resources recommended on their site.

This explanation is from the RTB website on their FAQs page:
7. Does RTB's view that plants and animals died before the Fall of Adam contradict what Romans 5:12 teaches?

It does not.
A careful examination of Romans 5:12 shows that Adam's sin introduced death to all humans, not to all life forms on Earth. Plant and animal death in no way ascribes evil or cruelty to the Creator. Furthermore, a biblical and scientific case can be made that the observed laws of physics have been in operation since the creation of the universe. LEARN MORE...
Web Articles
Creature Mortality: From Creation Or The Fall?
Animal Death Before the Fall: What Does the Bible Say?
Books and Other Resources
Life and Death in Eden CD Set
Why the Universe is the Way it Is by Hugh Ross

Edited by BikeBookBread, 13 January 2010 - 01:32 PM.


#5 JillZ

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:57 PM

And my question for Old Earth creationists, in case there is not such a book: can you please mention how Old Earth creationists provide Scripturally for the fact that there was no death before Adam and Eve.


Hi! My understanding is that the death brought about by Adam's sin is not referring to biological death, but spiritual death. Adam and Eve did not physically die when they ate of the fruit, but spiritually, they were dead. They were out of fellowship with God, and there was nothing that they could do on their own to save themselves. Adam brought spiritual death into the world, which is inherited by all people. Then Jesus came, not to merely bring biological life, but everlasting spiritual life.

I've found this interpretation to be consistent with my beliefs and interpretation of the Bible. But of course, as a human, my interpretation of the Bible is prone to error, and I would not stake my salvation on this issue. :001_smile:

#6 Guest_Virginia Dawn_*

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:05 PM

Hi! My understanding is that the death brought about by Adam's sin is not referring to biological death, but spiritual death. Adam and Eve did not physically die when they ate of the fruit, but spiritually, they were dead. They were out of fellowship with God, and there was nothing that they could do on their own to save themselves. Adam brought spiritual death into the world, which is inherited by all people. Then Jesus came, not to merely bring biological life, but everlasting spiritual life.

I've found this interpretation to be consistent with my beliefs and interpretation of the Bible. But of course, as a human, my interpretation of the Bible is prone to error, and I would not stake my salvation on this issue. :001_smile:


:iagree: especially the bold part.

The Bible is not a science book.

Edited by Virginia Dawn, 13 January 2010 - 02:11 PM.


#7 CathieC

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:25 PM

[quote name='BikeBookBread']I'm not going to become a part of this debate further because I'm not fully equipped (I'm just learning myself). However, I have found the Reasons to Believe website to be very informative and helpful. RTB is a Christian ministry that ascribes to an ancient universe/old earth creation model. I know several of Dr. Ross's books have been published by the Navigators (NavPress). He is not just some "out there" guy. There are many book and free article resources recommended on their site.QUOTE]

Thank you for sharing this resource. The web site is very interesting, I look forward to exploring it further.

#8 tex-mex

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 01:12 AM

I'm not going to become a part of this debate further because I'm not fully equipped (I'm just learning myself). However, I have found the Reasons to Believe website to be very informative and helpful. RTB is a Christian ministry that ascribes to an ancient universe/old earth creation model. I know several of Dr. Ross's books have been published by the Navigators (NavPress). He is not just some "out there" guy. There are many book and free article resources recommended on their site.

This explanation is from the RTB website on their FAQs page:
7. Does RTB's view that plants and animals died before the Fall of Adam contradict what Romans 5:12 teaches?

It does not.
A careful examination of Romans 5:12 shows that Adam's sin introduced death to all humans, not to all life forms on Earth. Plant and animal death in no way ascribes evil or cruelty to the Creator. Furthermore, a biblical and scientific case can be made that the observed laws of physics have been in operation since the creation of the universe. LEARN MORE...
Web Articles
Creature Mortality: From Creation Or The Fall?
Animal Death Before the Fall: What Does the Bible Say?
Books and Other Resources
Life and Death in Eden CD Set
Why the Universe is the Way it Is by Hugh Ross


I love Hugh Ross! His book, The Fingerprint of God really helped us years ago to understand this subject!

http://en.wikipedia....s_(creationist)

I have no idea where this fits in -- but hubby and I believe there was a Pre-Adamic earth where dinosaurs, paleo-earth, and neanderthal were in existence (but not all together). Radical, I know. Lucifer was cast out of heaven before Eden. But it sure makes a lot of sense when you tie it in to the Garden of Eden story.

Edited by tex-mex, 14 January 2010 - 01:22 AM.