Classical Writing for 2nd grader or WT or MCT?

[Annie Laurie]

On the Classical Writing website, it says that beginning Aesop students should be spelling at a 2nd grade level and reading beginning chapter books independently.

 

My dd is definitely spelling at a 2nd grade level, she is reading well above grade level and reads long chapter books on her own whenever she has a chance (Pippi Longstocking, Understood Betsy, etc.). She likes to write elaborate stories and poetry. She does well with dictation. She has an advanced vocabulary. She is bored with WWE, part of it is that I have her in level 1 and should have moved her up awhile ago, but as much as I love WWE, I think it's almost too incremental and slow for her.

 

Knowing all that, would you put her, as a 2nd grader, in CW Aesop? The new primer level looks wonderful, but I don't think it would be much different for her than WWE has been.

 

Or would you recommend something else entirely? My head is swimming with too many possibilities, including Michael Clay Thompson's materials and Writing Tales 1.

[Aurelia]

I haven't gotten to that level yet, so this is just speculation, but I think you probably could put her in Aesop, especially if she already has a good grasp of how to write. Some are ready for things sooner than the recommended age or grade level. I'm planning ahead, so I'm looking at CW, IEW or Bravewriter for when Ariel gets to that stage. (I might even get Bravewriter for ME :D. I used to love to write, but have sort of lost the knack for it over the years.) I like the look of all of them, but some look so intense (ex: IEW) to learn to teach. I've heard MCT doesn't really teach the child to write, but again, I don't have firsthand knowledge.

 

In any case: :lurk5:

[mrsanniep]

My second-grader is also an advanced reader (and semi-advanced speller) and we've also ditched WWE, as much as I, the mom and teacher, loved it. He was bored to tears with it. I recently switched to Writing Strands, but the verdict's still out about whether it's a good fit.

 

Sorry I can't be of much help other than to empathize with the second-grader/WWE thing!

[Jami]

Nevermind. :) I was going to recommend the new primer, but I see you've already looked at it.

 

We're using Imitations in Writing-Aesop right now and it's a good fit for my 2nd grade girl who is very much like your dd in ability. :)

[siloam]

I think Aesop would be fine for her. My only concern is where you would eventually go. Though you could do Aesop at half pace...

 

You see there is only 18 weeks of Aesop A and 18 weeks of Aesop B. Homer deals with some pretty hefty stuff, at a pretty fast pace (though again you can do it at half pace). For example the students needs to be able to take a sentence and know enough grammar to re-write it into different sentence forms. Take a noun-verb sentence and make it a noun-verb, direct object sentence. Then make it a noun-verb, indirect object, direct object sentence. Then make it a noun-linking verb, predicate nominative and a noun-linking verb, predicate adjective sentence. Now Homer doesn't start out doing this, it does build up to it. Just to give you an idea of the grammar needed ahead.

 

If you did it at half pace, doing the "analysis" (grammar, spelling, dictation, ect..) one week then the writing and re-writing in the second week, then I could see you making it last for a year. Or simply add your own models to practice with (if you have a book of Aesop fables this isn't difficult to do). I wouldn't start Homer with a child less than 4th grade, and then I would probably again split up the analysis and the writing portions and do them over two weeks.

 

It would be doable, but it would also take some work on your part. I think Writing tales has more models in the base program, so you could just do two years of WT (2nd and 3rd) and then move to CW Homer in 4th. That would probably be the option that has the least amount of work for you.

 

Heather

[Annie Laurie]

Thank you, Heather! Those are some excellent points.

[Alana in Canada]

From your description, I, too, think she'll be able to handle Aesop. It should be fine. Do take it a 1/2 pace though.

 

However, one thing I find the CW writers do not inform you enough about is the grammar. I suppose it's because they figure it's covered in Harvey's when you do Homer, but if you aren't doing Harvey's...or don't plan to...then you can be a bit lost. I appreciate what you wrote above siloam--I think everyone needs to be forwarned about the grammar required!

 

The authors' recommended R&S7 for the Grade seven text, Diogenees: Maxim. http://www.lulu.com/browse/preview.php?fCID=535651

 

Thus, I strongly recommend also doing Rod and Staff 3 along with your Aesop A. We did FLL and jumped right into R&S3 just fine.

 

We are a family weak in formal grammar, though and you may be fine doing something different! I just wanted to give you a heads up.

[Allearia]

I debated between CW Aesop and Writing Tales and went with Writing Tales for my young son, started at 6.5. CW really appealed to me but Writing Tales sounded like it is very similar and would get you to the same level but is more fun. We are still doing Writing Tales 1 and enjoying it, going kind of slow because we have other writing going on but my son really likes it. Sometimes when the stories get longer he writes it over a few days. We will probably do Writing Tales 2 and then go onto CW Homer.

 

We also do FLL 3 alongside as the grammar in WT is pretty minimal.

 

I'm sure either way would be good, but it would be worth comparing the two programs.

[kids&me]

My ds started with WT today, he actually said it was fun!

I am so happy about it because he has been a reluctant writer

We used it at a co-op with 2 other boys and they really enjoyed it to. He is also using WWE 2. It seems like WWE and WT go well together.

Angie

[Annie Laurie]

 

The authors' recommended R&S7 for the Grade seven text, Diogenees: Maxim. http://www.lulu.com/browse/preview.php?fCID=535651

 

Thus, I strongly recommend also doing Rod and Staff 3 along with your Aesop A. We did FLL and jumped right into R&S3 just fine.

 

We are a family weak in formal grammar, though and you may be fine doing something different! I just wanted to give you a heads up.

 

I'm glad you pointed that out, I thought we wouldn't need grammar with Aesop, I hadn't thought of looking ahead. She's almost done with FLL 1/2 so I guess we'll do FLL 3, R&S, or GWG. Too many choices!

[Annie Laurie]

I debated between CW Aesop and Writing Tales and went with Writing Tales for my young son, started at 6.5. CW really appealed to me but Writing Tales sounded like it is very similar and would get you to the same level but is more fun. We are still doing Writing Tales 1 and enjoying it, going kind of slow because we have other writing going on but my son really likes it. Sometimes when the stories get longer he writes it over a few days. We will probably do Writing Tales 2 and then go onto CW Homer.

 

We also do FLL 3 alongside as the grammar in WT is pretty minimal.

 

I'm sure either way would be good, but it would be worth comparing the two programs.

 

I'm leaning toward following Heather's advice of WT 1 and 2 followed by CW Homer. I didn't know that WT needed grammar supplementation, thanks for pointing that out.

[PeterPan]

Is your dd writing her own narrations yet? That is the next step to cross before starting a program like CW or WT. Once she can comfortably write her own narration, THEN you do a writing program. With my dd, she was writing her own narrations in 1st. In 2nd we did rewrites of the Milo Aesop's Fables and models from WT1 and CW Aesop A. In 3rd we did WT2, which has significantly more grammar than WT1 btw. So it's possible to do those things a year ahead, but you still want that foundation of comfort in writing their own narrations. Once you have that, the rest will come naturally. Any dc who has completed FLL1/2 could comfortably do the grammar in WT2, just my opinion. If you want to do just the grammar in WT, that's fine. Then you would do something more in-depth like JAG to follow it up. Or do a light touch of grammar on the side, not beating it to death.

 

WT is FABULOUS, highly recommend, especially for a girl. It's fun, has great models, is easy to implement, includes games and scripted lessons. It's even rather independent (you teach the lesson, they do the work) by WT2. What more could you ask for? :)

[frogpond1]

with our 2nd graders and will do CW Aesop next year. I find third grade an excellent grade for CW aesop A. Even my really great reader and writer did that sequence and it worked wonderfully for us. I think the new primer is perfect for second grade myself.

[Annie Laurie]

Is your dd writing her own narrations yet? That is the next step to cross before starting a program like CW or WT. Once she can comfortably write her own narration, THEN you do a writing program. With my dd, she was writing her own narrations in 1st. In 2nd we did rewrites of the Milo Aesop's Fables and models from WT1 and CW Aesop A. In 3rd we did WT2, which has significantly more grammar than WT1 btw. So it's possible to do those things a year ahead, but you still want that foundation of comfort in writing their own narrations. Once you have that, the rest will come naturally. Any dc who has completed FLL1/2 could comfortably do the grammar in WT2, just my opinion. If you want to do just the grammar in WT, that's fine. Then you would do something more in-depth like JAG to follow it up. Or do a light touch of grammar on the side, not beating it to death.

 

WT is FABULOUS, highly recommend, especially for a girl. It's fun, has great models, is easy to implement, includes games and scripted lessons. It's even rather independent (you teach the lesson, they do the work) by WT2. What more could you ask for? :)

 

Yes, she is writing her own narrations.

 

Thanks for the grammar clarification. WT does sound really good!

 

I'm glad you said that about WT being well suited for a girl, I can't see my ds8 doing well with it but felt bad about assuming that. I will probably try it and see since I'll have it, but he is so much like his elder brother that my inclination is to do IEW with him. Why does IEW seem so much more boy friendly?

[PeterPan]

Well when I listened to Pudewa at the convention last year, it was pretty obvious he understood boys and had taken their needs into account when writing IEW. Since you have it, might as well trust your gut and go that way with him. If you want to do WT with him, you can bring across from IEW the things that work for him (checklists, focusing on action with adverbs rather than girly things like names, concrete expectations, etc.).

[Annie Laurie]

Well when I listened to Pudewa at the convention last year, it was pretty obvious he understood boys and had taken their needs into account when writing IEW. Since you have it, might as well trust your gut and go that way with him. If you want to do WT with him, you can bring across from IEW the things that work for him (checklists, focusing on action with adverbs rather than girly things like names, concrete expectations, etc.).

 

That's a good explanation.

 

There are almost too many great choices for writing, must make up my mind.

[HiddenJewel]

nt

[Annie Laurie]

I would have liked to hear what you had to say, HJ.

[HiddenJewel]

I would have liked to hear what you had to say, HJ.

 

I was just going to say that it sounds like she would be ready for CW Aesop. But I have no experience with WT so didn't want to misdirect if that would be a better choice. We started in CW Homer as Aesop was too easy for dd#2. But from what I remember seeing in it before I resold it, your dd sounds to have the basic skills to handle it.

[Annie Laurie]

I was just going to say that it sounds like she would be ready for CW Aesop. But I have no experience with WT so didn't want to misdirect if that would be a better choice. We started in CW Homer as Aesop was too easy for dd#2. But from what I remember seeing in it before I resold it, your dd sounds to have the basic skills to handle it.

 

Thanks, Cynthia! I'm still thinking about doing it and slowing it down, or using WT, or if bumping up the level of WWE would make a difference. So many options!

[hlee]

Hi everyone---I'm a newbie, trying to figure out this whole homeschooling thing, leaning towards some version of the classical method/LCC/TWTM/CM (so confusing!) but for those of you who use Classical Writing Primers, do you need to order separate copybooks? And some of you have mentioned supplementing with grammar...are there other language arts curriculum you need to add on? I'm trying to get a handle on all the different LA things you're supposed to do and not quite sure how LCC and TWTM differ here--I think TWTM says you need spelling, phonics, grammar, writing, copywork...probably missing something here...and I'm not sure how much of these are covered when you use CW Primers. Can you see I'm still trying to sort all this out??? If anyone can offer some help here, I'd GREATLY appreciate it!!!!!! Thanks so much.

[siloam]

Thank you, Heather! Those are some excellent points.

 

By the way, even if they are board with it and can do it in their sleep, I don't recommend you drop narration or especially dictation. I dropped dictation for Sweet Pea last year thinking she had mastered it and her spelling came to a halt. It didn't improve, it didn't get worse, it just came to a stand still. I think having to apply it really helps then think about their spelling and apply the rules.

 

Guess what my oldest is doing again. :D

 

Heather

 

Edited April 26, 2009 by siloam

[siloam]

I'm leaning toward following Heather's advice of WT 1 and 2 followed by CW Homer. I didn't know that WT needed grammar supplementation, thanks for pointing that out.

 

I would recommend you ask OhElizabeth about that because I think she said at one point that the grammar in WT went farther than CW Aesop does. :confused: Maybe I mis-understood something, or maybe conceptually it does go farther, but just doesn't have much practice? ETA: I see her post below now. I did JAG with Aesop B, mostly because I was weak on grammar and the CW approach confused me. That is not CW's problem all traditional sequences (finding subject and verb right off) confuse me. JAG has a non-traditional sequence that "clicked" with me. I think my dd would have been fine with either if I had been able to answer her questions when she asked them. :eek: Given I couldn't JAG worked great.

 

Aesop will cover sentence types, and the parts of speech. In A they child just identifies them once a week on the model, usually reviewing ones they have learned as well as working on the new grammar. Then in Aesop B they begin simple diagramming. They do simplify sentences from the model for that and it is considered optional (doing the diagramming). I can't remember right now if parsing starts in Aesop B or Homer A??? I just parse above the sentence and don't do the whole table thing, so I didn't pay a lot of attention to that part.

 

In Homer you begin by reviewing that grammar, and the diagramming is considered a must at this point. After covering the parts of speech and how to diagram them, Homer B will move into Gerunds, Infinitives, ect...(the really tough stuff, or so I think because I haven't covered it yet ;) ).

 

Hopefully knowing what is expected can help you make some decisions.

 

Heather

 

Edited April 26, 2009 by siloam

[Testimony]

:thumbup:

WT is FABULOUS, highly recommend, especially for a girl. :)

 

My older son has used Writing Tales 1 and 2. My younger son is now using it. Both of my sons love this program.

 

So, I don't know about just for girls. My younger son is the reluctant writer and he loves doing the creative touches. OO, do we have fun!!!:thumbup:

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[PeterPan]

Attachedto4, I saw you're still struggling through this. I suggest you continue with WWE, but bump it up and proceed to the next skill level. It's a progression, not an age-based thing, so just keep moving forward till you are again at a place that fits her. The skills are fundamental and run parallel to what you'll do with WT/CW; it's not one or the other. And yes, by all means start WT or CW, *once* she is comfortably writing her own narration. I have no opinion on the MCT stuff, not having used it. I'm just clarifying that I think it's valuable to do *both* WT/CW and WWE.

 

Don't stress over the grammar. The grammar in WT1 is straightforward and will be quite doable if she has completed FLL1/2. Even WT2 is doable if they've completed FLL1/2. You can basically do whatever you want in small doses, moving forward, and be fine. We did Shurley4 over two years (small doses, remember?), and that was fine. Just pick what you like.

 

I think the writing thing is confusing because you're not seeing where it's going. If you read ahead a few chapters in WTM or reread the overview sections of WWE, things might come together for you better. Don't think of it as all or nothing. If you like elements of MCT, use them and add in the foundation, skill-building elements of WWE. That way you have your foundation (solid, steady progression) and your more creative/gifted stuff too. You can have them both, if you just maintain that balance. :)