11th grade Literature is over our heads

[74Heaven]

I remember being continually confused in high school over the ""themes, deeper meanings. author's struggles" in literature. Now, my dtrs seem equally confused.

 

If I hold their hands, I can help a lot. But even then, it is a ton of work and I am basically spoon-feeding my 2 high school dtrs. (I'm hsing 5 btw)

 

My dtrs are lost, and hating every minute. (American Lit) We don't mind reading the pieces so much as finding out that after we have read, we have retained none of the "deeper" things. Then, the simplest questions stump us and we go back to dig thru the readings. 3-4 comprehension questions can lead to an hour of digging and still we can only get 50% of them right. This is making Literature a 2hr a day struggle (and one that no one likes and I don't find it very profitable either.)

 

Btw, we "need" Literature credits and it is poss. one of my dtr will major in English or (teaching Lang Arts) at college?

 

I also remember my high school classmates being equally confused those 30some years ago. Are my dtrs and I having a "normal" high school Lit experience?

 

Btw, we are avid readers and love reading usually - we are using BJU Am Lit (gr 11) and DVDs. I am hand-holding a lot and

Any thoughts?

Lisaj

[NancyL]

I can sympathize-- When "we" had this problem I have found it worthwhile to take out the lowest priced one year's subscription to either Enotes.com or ragnotes.com. (I have done one year of each--I think the cheapest subscription is virtually identical for each company, but they always want you to upgrade) I have also asked the librarians about the public databases but they said for literature the private (you pay) ones have more information since they purchase the rights to provide more material. If you are reading a well known work there will be lots of information about it, as well as a sample paper(s)--I have found it to be valuable to see how the different literary connections are made. For the teenagers I might even print it out and make them study these notes.

 

My daughter was doing a Scholars Online lit course that was probably too advanced for her, and it did help somewhat. However, not all literature can be found in these services.

 

I have also picked up those large English books (like Perrine) at thrift stores, and they really are helpful in a general sense. I went to a state (more of a tech school) and we had no literature and very little writing instruction if you got a science degree. That's why I really enjoy reading the online information and sample papers, since I have no background in this area.

 

Another source is on learner.org --they have a literature analysis program. (Literary Visions?) I haven't started it yet, but I bought the textbook (the older one)

[Michelle in GA]

I remember being continually confused in high school over the ""themes, deeper meanings. author's struggles" in literature. Now, my dtrs seem equally confused.

 

If I hold their hands, I can help a lot. But even then, it is a ton of work and I am basically spoon-feeding my 2 high school dtrs. (I'm hsing 5 btw)

 

My dtrs are lost, and hating every minute. (American Lit) We don't mind reading the pieces so much as finding out that after we have read, we have retained none of the "deeper" things. Then, the simplest questions stump us and we go back to dig thru the readings. 3-4 comprehension questions can lead to an hour of digging and still we can only get 50% of them right. This is making Literature a 2hr a day struggle (and one that no one likes and I don't find it very profitable either.)

 

Btw, we "need" Literature credits and it is poss. one of my dtr will major in English or (teaching Lang Arts) at college?

 

I also remember my high school classmates being equally confused those 30some years ago. Are my dtrs and I having a "normal" high school Lit experience?

 

Btw, we are avid readers and love reading usually - we are using BJU Am Lit (gr 11) and DVDs. I am hand-holding a lot and

Any thoughts?

Lisaj

 

 

Does the BJU Teachers Edition text have answers to the comprehension questions? I know what you mean about missing the "deep" stuff. We just read the Death of Ivan Illyich. My ds took the story at face value, nothing more. When we read the Spark Notes anaylsis' of each chapter however, there were lots of, "Oh, that's smymbolic for that?...oh, that's what that means?...etc". Had my ds been expected to "see" those things for himself, he'd still be looking:). I see nothing wrong with using Spark Notes, or other such guides to help with the analysis part.

[74Heaven]

Does the BJU Teachers Edition text have answers to the comprehension questions? I know what you mean about missing the "deep" stuff. We just read the Death of Ivan Illyich. My ds took the story at face value, nothing more. When we read the Spark Notes anaylsis' of each chapter however, there were lots of, "Oh, that's smymbolic for that?...oh, that's what that means?...etc". Had my ds been expected to "see" those things for himself, he'd still be looking:). I see nothing wrong with using Spark Notes, or other such guides to help with the analysis part.

 

NancyL, We have dial up (trying to get broadband, no signal out here from the company we tried first) so internet options compound the too-much-time-spent problem.

 

Michelle, The BJU TE does have answers to most comprehension questions - I just handed my dtr my TE and I traded for her student text about a week ago and asked her to read the TE "side info" and check her own answers with the TE after she does them. There is often a weekly (or biweekly) assignment for which BJU does not provide answers. Fristrating...

 

Even when I read the comprehension Answers from the BJU TE, I still often have a hard time finding where (in the text's reading) is info that supports the TE answer. It requires some searching - and sometimes at the end it isn't even clear to me. Obviously I don't find it profitable to give my dtrs the answers w/o some rationale as to why the TE answer is a good one.

 

The last test I gave my dtr was "open notes" - her score mirrored her closed book test scores - dismal. I'm not opposed to "open book" at this point - tho

 

Thanks for the replies and sympathy!

Lisa

[Spock]

NancyL, We have dial up (trying to get broadband, no signal out here from the company we tried first) so internet options compound the too-much-time-spent problem.

 

Michelle, The BJU TE does have answers to most comprehension questions - I just handed my dtr my TE and I traded for her student text about a week ago and asked her to read the TE "side info" and check her own answers with the TE after she does them. There is often a weekly (or biweekly) assignment for which BJU does not provide answers. Fristrating...

 

Even when I read the comprehension Answers from the BJU TE, I still often have a hard time finding where (in the text's reading) is info that supports the TE answer. It requires some searching - and sometimes at the end it isn't even clear to me. Obviously I don't find it profitable to give my dtrs the answers w/o some rationale as to why the TE answer is a good one.

 

The last test I gave my dtr was "open notes" - her score mirrored her closed book test scores - dismal. I'm not opposed to "open book" at this point - tho

 

Thanks for the replies and sympathy!

Lisa

 

Literature interpretation is NOT a cut and dried thing. It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with the textbook interpretation and say, "I don't think that's what this selection is about at all!"

 

Literature is rather open, and often we as readers notice meanings/applications that the author himself (herself) might not have seen. Teens, who have less life experience, will not always come up with the same interpretation as the textbook author. Parents, with different life experience, will sometimes come up with a different meaning than the textbook author, also.

 

If you discuss what the author of the textbook saw in the selection, and talk about whether or not you agree and why, you will receive the benefits of literary analysis. At first, you may need to read what the textbook author thinks first, and build off that. With time, your daughter may learn to seek applications and interpretations of her own before being told what the textbook answer is.

[vmsurbat]

I remember being continually confused in high school over the ""themes, deeper meanings. author's struggles" in literature. Now, my dtrs seem equally confused.

 

If I hold their hands, I can help a lot. But even then, it is a ton of work and I am basically spoon-feeding my 2 high school dtrs. (I'm hsing 5 btw)

 

My dtrs are lost, and hating every minute. (American Lit) We don't mind reading the pieces so much as finding out that after we have read, we have retained none of the "deeper" things. Then, the simplest questions stump us and we go back to dig thru the readings. 3-4 comprehension questions can lead to an hour of digging and still we can only get 50% of them right. This is making Literature a 2hr a day struggle (and one that no one likes and I don't find it very profitable either.)

 

Btw, we "need" Literature credits and it is poss. one of my dtr will major in English or (teaching Lang Arts) at college?

 

I also remember my high school classmates being equally confused those 30some years ago. Are my dtrs and I having a "normal" high school Lit experience?

 

Btw, we are avid readers and love reading usually - we are using BJU Am Lit (gr 11) and DVDs. I am hand-holding a lot and

Any thoughts?

Lisaj

 

I am one who also fails to see much of what the deeper meaning lit guides tell me is in a particular work. We are also avid readers and get much out of our reading--just not always what the textbook is hinting at. So, you are not alone. I will tell you what is working for us right now and why.

 

First off, I no longer sweat the deeper analysis--I now have two children in competitive colleges (doing *very* well), both double-majoring, both with one literature degree (one English, the other German). So, our lack of "finding" not-very-obvious-meaning during the high school years has not hindered them in anyway with going on to college-level literature and English courses. Take this FWIW.

 

In particular, my one daughter studied The Scarlet Letter via a Christian high school textbook (loaned to us) and she groaned all through it at the "what does xxxx symbolize" questions--so much so that when she found out her younger siblings are doing The Scarlet Letter this year, she *still* brought up her complaints about those questions four years later. And this is the one with English as one of her majors.....

 

What really prepares children for an English/Lit degree is generally being able to think and ponder and write reasonably well. The *professors* at college will inspire/help them mature in their understanding of literature. I am content to focus our high school studies on high school skills/depth and leave college for college.....

 

That said, I have found some success with literature studies using Hewitt Lightning Lit. guides. If you read posts about these guides on the WTM board, you will find that the families who regularly/easily/enjoy finding deeper meanings generally don't find the guides meaty enough. Ok, no problem--I don't argue the point at all. We, however, are NOT one of those families, and the LL guides meet our needs admirably.

 

What I like:

 

1. Real & worthwhile literature--whole books and poetry are studied--not mere snippets.

 

2. Some author/culture information is included for each work. These seem to me to be more broad/include more information than the author information included with the BJU Lit. textbooks.

 

3. Each work (book, essay, poem) focuses on ONE literary Lesson--theme, setting, tone, character, etc. These literary lessons are informative if Lit. isn't your thing. For example, this week, my son (and I) have studied "tone" via Poe's short story, "The Tell-Tale Heart". The guide includes *several* pages outlining just *HOW* Poe's story sets the tone--via character, word choice, setting, and plot development. For the follow-up writing assignment, my son choose to analyze Poe's development of tone in another of his works (he choose "The Raven"). Because we are focusing on that one aspect, "tone", we are getting a very good look at that topic AND finding things to discuss about The Raven naturally--including what the Raven might represent. We don't have a guide to tell us if we are right or wrong, so we can happily discuss this and then move on, WITHOUT GUILT.

 

4. The LL guides DO include basic comprehension questions (with separate answer key) and sometimes that helps keep my son's reading on track--less daydreaming and more focused.

 

5. The guides ALSO include discussion questions, but they are less "lit. guide" questions and more "so how does this effect you" questions. No answers are included--we rarely use these but sometimes, one or two strike me as useful jump off points.

 

6. The guides also include a small list of projects that relate to a particular literary work (this stems from Hewitt's early days as a big promoter of unit studies). Again, we don't use this much.

 

7. Most of the guides (we have 6 of them so far--I am slowly collecting two-three each year) include an appendix with a list of other works by author--my son ended up REALLY enjoying Washington Irving's style and that list has proved useful in easily digging up more works by Irving.

 

What I don't Like:

 

1. While each lit. lesson concludes with several writing exercises from which to choose, there is little direction on accomplishing those writing assignments. I find that I need to be involved at the beginning of each writing exercise, giving more explicit guidance as to what I am expecting.

 

I've chosen to spend a chunk of my "teaching" time coaching my high schoolers with their writing (I've no little ones at home anymore), so this is not a big drawback to me. But it might be to you....

 

2. All the guides contain a weekly schedule (helpful) but it is not broken down by xxx time reading and xxxx time writing, so I can't always figure out just how much time and effort is supposed to be spent on each writing assignment when both reading AND writing are scheduled in the same week. Again, not enough of a deterrent to me.

 

In a nutshell, the LL guides give us enough of a focus (one literary "topic"/work) that we feel we are accomplishing something while reading worthwhile literature. And, for us, the various lit. topics are adding up and we are gaining in our overall "lit. analysis" abilities without being overwhelmed.

 

Best wishes in finding the solution to your struggles.

[Michelle in AL]

I'm wondering if the BJU Lit itself is part of the problem. I must say I haven't used BJU for lit, but have for science & math. They have a very specific worldview and it seems that in science and even math they attempt to make connections that support their worldview, not matter how minute that connection may be.

 

Now, I can't say this is what's occurring for sure since I haven't used their program.

 

Some things that have actually helped me to teach and interpret literature better are:

Windows to the World by IEW (I apply the principles taught in this to any text we're reading)

How to Read Literature like a Professor has been great for symbolism.

[laughing lioness]

I am an avid reader, have taught writing as well as some lit. Still, I am often confused at some of the "deeper meanings" that are supposed to be obvious, but to me just aren't.

I would suggest some simple lit analysis tools. Logos has some great eled materials on Poetry and Shakespeare that have broken those areas into bite sized pieces, for me at least. The Greenleaf guide to Ancient Lit is clear about breaking things down, too. They have the student draw charts about the literature in order to analyze it.

Also, IEW has "Teaching the Classics" that "prepare you to explore literature in greater depth." It migth be worth taking time to do this so that you don't feel that you are doing so much hand-holding.

Lastly, I like Lightening Lit. I've read some critiques that it's too simplistic, but they do have the kids read classical lit, the assingments are doable and enjoyable and the take away is that the kids understand the basics of whatever time period being studied. Sometimes that's as deep as ya need to get.

[Liza Q]

I am content to focus our high school studies on high school skills/depth and leave college for college.....

 

ITA.

[Julie in MN]

I'm wondering if the BJU Lit itself is part of the problem.

 

I was wondering this, too. Doesn't BJU use excerpts, rather than complete works of literature? It might be better to study one complete work in more depth using a guide (Progeny Press, Smarr, or whatever), at least until she gets used to the typical study of literature.

[74Heaven]

I was wondering this, too. Doesn't BJU use excerpts, rather than complete works of literature? It might be better to study one complete work in more depth using a guide (Progeny Press, Smarr, or whatever), at least until she gets used to the typical study of literature.

 

OTOH, we have 11 weeks of school left and I am swamped and not inclined to switch now (not that I shouldn't consider it lol). Also, I had hoped that the video instructors (via DVDs) would be fleshing out the material for my students - I haven't watched the videos much, but I find the instructor enthusiastic but not particularily helpful for the HW and test questions we are poring over. I will adjust our work here to more oral work and more basic literature (plot, sequence, audience, historical significance) and less "deeper meanings".

 

We are reading a few whole selections even tho BJU does not require it. And that could be part of the problem as BJU pacing is kind of fast (i.e. cover "Romanticism" writers (4 or 5) in 2 weeks. Hindsight being 20-20, I kind of wish I had did Lit and English concurrently rather then leave Lit for the second semester. Like Eng MWF and Lit Tu/Th wil Eng was done.

 

All of the advice given in this thread has been extremely valuable and for the most part, eye-opening for me. I really needed the wake up call and appreciate it.

 

Even tho we will press on, I have received a lot of help here with all of your offerings. Thank you ever so much!

 

Lisaj