CW - Homer and Diogenes

[Melissa B]

I purchased the cores for Homer and Diogenes.

 

I love the Homer core. It is set up so well for using my own selections. And the student can move up the levels as he or she is ready. I think the whole book is very well done and covers a whole lot of ground. So, I am ready to switch completely from Classical Composition to Classical Writing.

 

Then I looked at Diogenes and it isn't set up at all like that. I can't really see any way to use it other than buying the workbook and having a writing program separate from history and literature.

 

I have the second edition. Is the first edition set up more like Homer? Or has anyone been able to use Diogenes Maxim with different selections?

 

Also, I don't feel like the student will have progressed very far at the end of Diogenes. The very last chapter is about five paragraph essays. I feel like the student would already be at that point at the end of Homer. Is it worth it spending a year analyzing maxims?

 

I guess I would like to hear from those using Diogenes. What are your thoughts on the program?

[Kimber]

I'm curious as to the answer to this question as well. If no one responds, maybe you can post this question on the CW message boards.

 

Kimberly

[Amy from WT]

My son did Diogenes in a co-op class last year, and it was WONDERFUL. I did not teach the class, so I can't really comment on the core manual as I have not read through it yet. But I can comment on the value of the program to the student - incredible!!!! Yes yes yes, it is so worth it. My son learned how to take a maxim and expand on it by writing on a testimony about it, an example about it, commenting on its cause and its opposite, etc. They teach a wonderful formula for writing essays, and then when they condense the ancient nine paragraph formula into a five paragraph formula they make it applicable to modern day education.

 

I don't find Diogenes comparable to Homer at all, which only teaches narrative writing.

 

My only caution with Diogenes is that you should definitely wait until your child is cognitively able to handle the course. A friend and I had our 7th grade sons in the course, and our boys really did struggle through most of the year. They were just not ready to think that way yet! In contrast, the 7th grade girl in the class flew through with no problem at all. We saw a big difference in our boys at the end of the year in their work, more related to their cognitive development than to what they had learned, so we wished we had waited until they were in the 8th grade to put them through the course.

 

For example, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Now Johnny, you've learned the essay formula, please write a nine paragraph essay on that maxim. Some of my son's paragraphs in his rough draft consisted of, "If you study this maxim, then you are wise. [next paragraph] If you don't study this maxim, then you are stupid." And those were his cause and opposite paragraphs, consistent (kind of) with the formula! Yikes! Let's just say he flew through his rough drafts every single time because they were, basically, the same thing every time! It's kind of funny now that I'm past the whole thing.

 

Hope this helps!

[Melissa B]

I did check on the Classical Writing message board. I received one response from an administrator this morning. She said the first edition is set up just like the second edition. Also, all additional books will be set up like the Diogenes book. (I read that on a different CW message board thread.) I am really disappointed. I decided I am going to use the Homer core book. It seems to be just what I was looking for. I am going to start my dd10 at the beginning so it should get us through the next year and a half at least. I may just do a whole bunch of reading this year and using a couple of programs for ideas put together my own program. :(

[Mama Lynx]

Thanks, Amy. I was considering "rushing" my son into Diogenes next year, at the beginning of 7th grade, although he won't be finished with Homer B by then. So, perhaps I should just take it easy, and wait? My ds will be 12.5 at the beginning of 7th, and he is not strong in writing.

[frogpond1]

7 students 6th-7th and at the beginning of this year, and even now, the thought process is just not quite ready for it. I'm glad I waited though, they can write incredible narratives without blinking an eye now. I'm trying to decide on CW or Lost Tools of Writing for next year myself.

[Melissa B]

Amy -

 

Thanks for the detailed response!

 

Have you found that your son could take his essay writing skills and apply them beyond writing about maxims by the end of the year? Could he write an expository essay in history or science or literature as well? If so, was it the Diogenes book that taught him to do so?

 

I know you have a better understanding of the writing process than I do. Do you feel a student in seventh or eighth grade SHOULD be able to then apply his writing skills across the curriculum?

[susie in tx]

I've been thinking about putting my 12 yo into Aesop Older Beginners this summer, rather than having her go through the Homer books. Hmmm. Maybe I should wait. She writes creatively as a hobby. We're 2/3 of the way through Writing Tales 2 and she finds all of the activities quite easy. I'm finding that she likes the writing better if I pull skills out of Homer to add to her final draft.

 

Hmmm.

 

She'll be 13 in May, so she would be 13 when we started. I'll have to think on this. What do you all think?

[Jackie in AR]

My only caution with Diogenes is that you should definitely wait until your child is cognitively able to handle the course. A friend and I had our 7th grade sons in the course, and our boys really did struggle through most of the year. They were just not ready to think that way yet! In contrast, the 7th grade girl in the class flew through with no problem at all. We saw a big difference in our boys at the end of the year in their work, more related to their cognitive development than to what they had learned, so we wished we had waited until they were in the 8th grade to put them through the course.

 

For example, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Now Johnny, you've learned the essay formula, please write a nine paragraph essay on that maxim. Some of my son's paragraphs in his rough draft consisted of, "If you study this maxim, then you are wise. [next paragraph] If you don't study this maxim, then you are stupid." And those were his cause and opposite paragraphs, consistent (kind of) with the formula! Yikes! Let's just say he flew through his rough drafts every single time because they were, basically, the same thing every time! It's kind of funny now that I'm past the whole thing.

 

 

I'm glad you posted about this, Amy. My 7th-grade (just turned 13yo) boys are in the first weeks of Diogenes, and everything sounds the same. "You can see the wisdom in this maxim, etc." As a result, we've laid Diogenes aside for a while. Not sure what we're going to do, but will probably wait until fall to try Diogenes again.

 

Now, what I really want to know is this: is the co-op where your son did the Diogenes class online or in-person? :D

[Kate in Arabia]

Can I hijack and ask how long you all spent on Homer? We finished Aesop a couple weeks ago and this week started Beginning Poetry A. I was thinking to do either 6 weeks or 12 weeks before getting into Homer with my ds (10 yrs, 4-5th grader).

[Susan in SoCal]

has been a 2 year journey. We did Homer A last year (10yo ds, 5th grade). And this year we're doing Homer B (just completed Week 11).

 

Thanks to Amy's comments from last year (2 years ago?), I've never been in a rush to complete Homer. And after reading thru Diogenes myself, I knew, for absolutely sure, that I didn't want my son to arrive there before 7th (or perhaps 7 1/2th grade!).

 

Classical Writing is funny that way. There's no need to start Aesop early or rush thru it, because few students younger than 4th grade (minimum, methinks) will be ready for Homer level work. And likewise, there's no need to rush thru Homer, because few students younger than 7th or 8th grade are going to be ready for Diogenes level work.

 

Just my .02.

[Amy from WT]

Amy -

 

Thanks for the detailed response!

 

Have you found that your son could take his essay writing skills and apply them beyond writing about maxims by the end of the year? Could he write an expository essay in history or science or literature as well? If so, was it the Diogenes book that taught him to do so?

 

I know you have a better understanding of the writing process than I do. Do you feel a student in seventh or eighth grade SHOULD be able to then apply his writing skills across the curriculum?

 

Hi Melissa,

 

Yes, my son is in a literature class this year in co-op. The same students that took Diogenes last year are in this class. They were so burned out from Diogenes, that our plan was to put them in this literature class instead of a writing class for this year, but to have them write essays periodically to keep their skills up. It has worked well. They have had essays to write about once a month about their books, and they have pretty much retained their skills from Diogenes, and been able to apply them well to their literature. We've been very pleased. I don't think his skills have grown much, because it is not a writing class per se, but just to see him retain what he learned and apply it to another subject is wonderful. And yes, absolutely, I don't see any reason why a seventh or eighth grader shouldn't be able to apply his writing skills across the curriculum. It was absolutely the Diogenes book that taught him to write essays so well, but if any seventh or eighth grader learns to write essays well from any other curriculum, they should be able to do it too. There wasn't anything special about Diogenes that taught them to apply essay writing across the curriculum.

 

Our co-op is considering for its next year Diogenes class splitting the class into two years. We think the students will retain the material better that way, and even learn it better, having twice as long to digest it.

 

And to the other lady (sorry, I don't know how to go back to find your name without losing my post at this point!), no, our co-op is not on-line! So sorry! But what a great idea! I do think the lady that taught our class did such a great job with the curriculum. I agree the manual is very hard to use. The teacher really has to take a long time to "digest" the material. But wow, the material in there is golden!

[Amy from WT]

I've been thinking about putting my 12 yo into Aesop Older Beginners this summer, rather than having her go through the Homer books. Hmmm. Maybe I should wait. She writes creatively as a hobby. We're 2/3 of the way through Writing Tales 2 and she finds all of the activities quite easy. I'm finding that she likes the writing better if I pull skills out of Homer to add to her final draft.

 

Hmmm.

 

She'll be 13 in May, so she would be 13 when we started. I'll have to think on this. What do you all think?

 

Hi Susie,

 

Boy, my opinion? I think Aesop Older Beginners would be way too easy for her after finishing WT2! Especially if you're adding in Homer skills. WT 2 is equivalent to the second year of Aesop, but even a little more aggressive than that. What about doing a little bit of CW Poetry, which I believe is meant to be done six or eight weeks a year, and then going right into Homer second year?

 

She'll really need to start learning essay writing soon too. You'll need to start that sometime, but if she loves creative writing, there's no need to abandon that while you're learning essays. Just work in something creative once in awhile to give her a break.

 

Just a thought!

[susie in tx]

Hi Amy,

 

Hi Susie,

 

Boy, my opinion? I think Aesop Older Beginners would be way too easy for her after finishing WT2! Especially if you're adding in Homer skills.

 

I'm only adding in Homer skills sporadically, as I think of them.

 

WT 2 is equivalent to the second year of Aesop, but even a little more aggressive than that. What about doing a little bit of CW Poetry, which I believe is meant to be done six or eight weeks a year, and then going right into Homer second year?

 

I plan to skip the Aesop lessons in Older Beginners and just start right into the Homer stuff, so I don't miss any of the Homer. I hate to be tied to curriculum, but I use it as a crutch so very often. I'm not confident in my own abilities to cover everything she needs in the first part of Homer, without the aid of a workbook. It would be really nice if you could just write WT for the next few years so I wouldn't have to concern myself with the CW stuff. ;)

 

She'll really need to start learning essay writing soon too. You'll need to start that sometime, but if she loves creative writing, there's no need to abandon that while you're learning essays. Just work in something creative once in awhile to give her a break.

 

She wants to be an author, so I'm trying to let her write as much as she wants. She writes creatively almost every day, though I rarely look at it. I figure that's just something she does. In fact, it's been something she has done for years. We have page and pages of her creative writing. Most of it is variations of Peter Pan stories. I have no idea how to teach her essay writing except through CW, so I wanted to get through Homer so she could move forward to Diogenes. Since Older Beginners is a shorter book (20 weeks or so), I figured that I could go through that and then begin Diogenes sometime in the fall.

 

I guess I can only try it out and see what works.

 

Thanks so much for your input, Amy.

[Amy from WT]

It would be really nice if you could just write WT for the next few years so I wouldn't have to concern myself with the CW stuff. ;)[/quote

 

 

Oh, you're so nice.....here's my initial reaction to that sweet comment:

(a) Pray for me to get smarter so I can really do my best job possible on the next three levels. I'm excited to get started, but honestly, they scare me a little bit! and

(b) Pray for my husband to find a job! The poor guy has been unemployed since last summer, and if he doesn't find something in his line of work soon, we'll both have to go to work full time at lower paying jobs. Which of course will put writing and homeschooling on the back burner for awhile.