WWS vs Lantern?

[Ann.without.an.e]

DS is growing tired of WWS II and I wonder about switching to Lantern? He's a good writer but lacks confidence. He's def more of a math science kiddo in general.  I feel like we need more actual pen to paper writing to gain some confidence. 

Any thoughts on this? Also if we start Lantern, which one should we start with?

Thanks 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[wendyroo]

11 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

DS is growing tired of WWS II and I wonder about switching to Lantern? He's a good writer but lacks confidence. He's def more of a math science kiddo in general.  I feel like we need more actual pen to paper writing to gain some confidence. 

Any thoughts on this? Also if we start Lantern, which one should we start with?

Thanks 

My oldest has done both...and I think they have both taught him important skills.

In our experience, WWS is harder - it teaches higher level skills and requires more writing/takes more time. DS has been able to use skills he learned in WWS to write better papers for Lantern.

Lantern is most beneficial for us due to the outside feedback. It is teaching pretty basic, formulaic writing, but it is requiring DS to produce it independently to meet a due date.

I have found the Lantern sample syllabi to be very helpful. They lay out exactly what will be covered each week of the class. So I would just browse and see which one covers the skills you would like your son to work on.

My DS was a pretty reluctant writer, so I actually had him start all the way at Lanterns sentence writing level even through he was in 4th or 5th grade. Then he worked his way through most of the classes. He has now taken up through The Research Paper and Choosing and Using Sources. He has also taken a bunch of the creative writing classes and two literature classes. Starting next year in 9th, he will be working through Lantern's high school classes and doing some WWS.

Let me know if you have any specific questions about Lantern classes or the levels. I might be able to help.

[Ann.without.an.e]

27 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

My oldest has done both...and I think they have both taught him important skills.

In our experience, WWS is harder - it teaches higher level skills and requires more writing/takes more time. DS has been able to use skills he learned in WWS to write better papers for Lantern.

Lantern is most beneficial for us due to the outside feedback. It is teaching pretty basic, formulaic writing, but it is requiring DS to produce it independently to meet a due date.

I have found the Lantern sample syllabi to be very helpful. They lay out exactly what will be covered each week of the class. So I would just browse and see which one covers the skills you would like your son to work on.

My DS was a pretty reluctant writer, so I actually had him start all the way at Lanterns sentence writing level even through he was in 4th or 5th grade. Then he worked his way through most of the classes. He has now taken up through The Research Paper and Choosing and Using Sources. He has also taken a bunch of the creative writing classes and two literature classes. Starting next year in 9th, he will be working through Lantern's high school classes and doing some WWS.

Let me know if you have any specific questions about Lantern classes or the levels. I might be able to help.

 

I'm really torn between stopping WWS and moving to Lantern or finishing WWS 3 first. Do you have any thoughts on the pros and cons of this since you've done both?

Thanks 

[wendyroo]

One thing to consider is that for us Lantern does not offer a full week's worth of work. On average it takes my son about an hour a week to complete his Lantern assignments...and in classes like Growing the Essay that alternate between rough and final drafts, he spends 60-90 minutes on rough draft weeks, and only 5-15 on final draft weeks.

So, for us, I give DS a choice between either two Lantern classes at a time (expository + creative writing or expository + literature) or one Lantern class and moving through WWS at a slower pace (completing 1/3 to 1/2 lesson per week). 

This has worked well for us, and is how DS moved through all the Lantern middle school classes and WWS 1 and the first half of 2. This year DS is in a virtual school (yuck!), but next year he will be back to both Lantern and WWS. Well, he likes Lantern more because it is easier, so I expect he will mostly choose to run two Lantern classes at a time. But I told him I still wanted us to read through the rest of the WWS series, even if he didn't complete the assignments.

[Farrar]

What are the goals for writing? They're *both* formulaic, just in different ways.

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

What are the goals for writing? They're *both* formulaic, just in different ways.

He is very bright but very logic driven and he likes to feel confident he's doing things the "right way" which isn't as clear with writing as math. I just want him to feel more confident and stop overthinking it so much.  

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

He is very bright but very logic driven and he likes to feel confident he's doing things the "right way" which isn't as clear with writing as math. I just want him to feel more confident and stop overthinking it so much.  

Weeellll... Remind me what grade he's in? Because my thought about this is that you're right - sometimes kids like that need to really know "the rules." And if they're STEM leaning kids, who cares if they learn an art as a science. They likely won't become poets anyway. They just need to be serviceable in the end. 

So with that in mind, you could go toward the most rulesy rules program of all and embrace IEW. 

But... you've already been teaching writing with a pretty formulaic program and it didn't apparently help. He's still overthinking it. So you could also go the exact opposite direction and toss him into a Brave Writer class where the opposite approach might help him trust his own internal sense a little more. Or, if he's relatively farther along in high school, you could let him do dual enrollment for Comp 101 or take AP Lang and let him see that he does okay in the class and then maybe the overthinking it will fade because he'll get the outside validation that his writing is basically fine.

Or maybe it's a growth stage and nothing you do is going to change it and you should just keep plugging along with whatever works best for you and him. Lantern would be pared down a bit and definitely a path of less resistance. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

7 hours ago, Farrar said:

Weeellll... Remind me what grade he's in? Because my thought about this is that you're right - sometimes kids like that need to really know "the rules." And if they're STEM leaning kids, who cares if they learn an art as a science. They likely won't become poets anyway. They just need to be serviceable in the end. 

 

He's in 8th. He is very STEM with no desire to go into the arts whatsoever. He leans toward engineering or comp sci at this point. He would be a fantastic physician but he doesn't want the education commitment (time and money). 

In my head I've rolled around all the ways I could go about this with him and I'm so torn. He's actually a good writer in function and he has some really creative ideas. He just gets so hung up on the fact that he can't look at an answer key and see that he's doing it exactly as expected. The fact that he can't be certain he's approaching it the right way will sort of paralyze him and he will take forever to complete something because he's way way overthinking it. 

This is all new to me. My girls were great writers who loved English and I never had to think through any of this with them. In face, by this point we really didn't have a curriculum. They just wrote throughout their curriculum, entered writing contests, and wrote a lot on their own. Until AP Lang and Lit we sort of did our own thing. My other DS just didn't care enough to overthink it lol. He was a pretty good writer but didn't care about academic work enough to want to develop it and he could do what he needed to do and never overthought it. 

 

[wendyroo]

3 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

He's in 8th. He is very STEM with no desire to go into the arts whatsoever. He leans toward engineering or comp sci at this point. He would be a fantastic physician but he doesn't want the education commitment (time and money). 

In my head I've rolled around all the ways I could go about this with him and I'm so torn. He's actually a good writer in function and he has some really creative ideas. He just gets so hung up on the fact that he can't look at an answer key and see that he's doing it exactly as expected. The fact that he can't be certain he's approaching it the right way will sort of paralyze him and he will take forever to complete something because he's way way overthinking it. 

This is all new to me. My girls were great writers who loved English and I never had to think through any of this with them. In face, by this point we really didn't have a curriculum. They just wrote throughout their curriculum, entered writing contests, and wrote a lot on their own. Until AP Lang and Lit we sort of did our own thing. My other DS just didn't care enough to overthink it lol. He was a pretty good writer but didn't care about academic work enough to want to develop it and he could do what he needed to do and never overthought it. 

 

My take...
Your older kids spoiled you! 😄

My 8th grader is my oldest. His writing sounds very much like your son's - functionally strong, creative ideas, but writing is slow and dreaded. But, I have no one older to compare him to, so I am just thrilled we have gotten to the point that he can write fairly functionally.

I do think Lantern helped my son not overthink writing, because, honestly, their standards just aren't as high as mine or WWS's. He hates writing, and has realized that he can pull off high As in Lantern even if he throws together his assignments pretty quickly. And, realistically, that is a pretty important skill for a STEM student. He will never be required to agonize for hours over poetry word choice...he just needs to crank out logical, grammatical essays in a reasonable time frame without too much stress. And that is what Lantern has him do.

[Ann.without.an.e]

14 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

My take...
Your older kids spoiled you! 😄

 

They did and it doesn't help that my girls have so many opinions about it all too lol. DD just keeps saying "he just needs to write more, no program needed." He really drags it out in a painful way that makes me want to lose my mind. 

I'm really leaning toward Lantern for the next 8 week sign up period. I think I may just throw him into Essay Basics for review. Do you think that is a good place to start or is that too easy?

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[desertflower]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

They did and it doesn't help that my girls have so many opinions about it all too lol. DD just keeps saying "he just needs to write more, no program needed." He really drags it out in a painful way that makes me want to lose my mind. 

I'm really leaning toward Lantern for the next 8 week sign up period. I think I may just throw him into Essay Basics for review. Do you think that is a good place to start or is that too easy?

I'm in the same boat, so I'm following.  🙂 

[Ann.without.an.e]

9 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I'm in the same boat, so I'm following.  🙂 

 

It appears you are lol. Can we roam OT for a second. What is your planned science sequence for High School? I'm really up in the air on this.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Farrar]

@Ann.without.an.e, given his age, I'd assume this is at least partially just developmental. I do think Lantern could be a good choice in this case. It's so inexpensive comparatively too. I'd go for it.

[wendyroo]

25 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I'm really leaning toward Lantern for the next 8 week sign up period. I think I may just throw him into Essay Basics for review. Do you think that is a good place to start or is that too easy?

If it helps, this is an essay that DS submitted for week 7 of Essay Basics. It got a 99% and the only change they encouraged was strengthening his last sentence (they offered suggestions).

My Favorite Pastime

     If you could do anything at all, what would you choose to do? I would always choose to use a
screen. There are many reasons that I love to use screens whenever I can. My favorite pastime is using
screens because I can play games, watch videos, or look up things.
     My favorite part of using screens is playing video games. I love to look for games online and try
them. If I find one that I like, for example Stack Maze, then I will continue to play it until I get bored
with it. Playing games online is a great way to discover what interests you, like logic puzzles or
physics. Playing video games is the best thing to do on a screen.
     If I don’t find a game that I want to play, then I watch YouTube videos. I will look for a video
on a topic that interests me, like ADHD and then from there I look at related videos by different people.
This way I can find a person whose videos I like and look at more of their videos in the future.
Watching YouTube videos is a lot of fun for me.
     Sometimes though, videos aren’t enough to keep me occupied, then I turn to Google. As a last
resort to avoid boredom, I’ll even read things like arguments about whether tomatoes are a fruit or a
vegetable! When I look something up, I usually end up on side paths that lead this way and that.
Exploring these is often very fun for me because I learn random facts that I can amaze people with, and
ward away my boredom. It also lets me discover new interests, like botanical classifications. Looking
things up is only my last resort though.
     When I am asked what my favorite pastime is, I will answer screens because I can play games,
watch videos, and look things up. These are only some of the things that I do on screens. Using screens
is a surefire way to avoid boredom, so why don’t you try them. I hope you have fun.

[wendyroo]

For comparison, this was week 8 of Growing the Essay 1. This scored 100%.

The Sad Death of Nickel

Have you ever had a beloved pet die after having lived your
whole life with them? It can really change a person. That is
why I chose this topic for my personal narrative. The pet that
I will talk about was named Nickel. She was an amazing pet,
so I was quite sad when she died.

Nickel was my family’s pet turtle, and she had been for a long
time. She was found at my grandparent’s cottage by my mom
and uncle. My uncle named her Nickel because of her size.
Nickel has grown much larger, because when my mom found
her, she was only a child.

The fact that Nickel had been our pet for so long likely was a
factor in her death. Nickel also was having a problem with either
her liver or her bladder when she died. If she were
younger, she might have recovered, but her age took its toll.

After Nickel died, we decided to bury her where she had been
found. We placed her in a box and placed it in the ground at
my grandparent’s cottage. My grandparents then made a
grave marker out of wood. We drilled into the wood to make
depressions, then spray-painted the whole thing.

Nickel had been my family’s pet for many years. My mom
and uncle found her in 1990, long before I was born. Nickel
died in 2018 when she was at least twenty-eight years old.
That made her more than twice as old as I am now.

Part of why Nickel was special to me was that she had been a
family pet since before I was born, so I grew up with her. I
had never known a time without her, which made her an
honorary sister. This made her death even more impactful.

When Nickel died, my life changed drastically. Her death
was one of the saddest moments in my life. I learned from it
that nothing lasts forever. Luckily, my family has gotten new
pets.

[Ann.without.an.e]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

@Ann.without.an.e, given his age, I'd assume this is at least partially just developmental. I do think Lantern could be a good choice in this case. It's so inexpensive comparatively too. I'd go for it.

I'm thinking about finishing the year with Lantern's Essay Basics or Growing the Essay (I can't decide which one) and if that goes ok then doing another 8 week session this summer. 

For 9th grade I think I want to use The Power in Your Hands. If Lantern is going ok then we can complete some 8 weeks sessions of it too (since it doesn't sound too time consuming). I'm already planning on using Windows to the World next year for literary analysis and will mesh that with some of Excellence in Literature's intro materials (they work well together). 

Does my plan sound solid? Y'all please stop me from doing anything stupid lol 

I didn't think I would have as many decisions to make with my youngest and now I'm looking at high school and rethinking everything. Also, there are so many great online options now that didn't exist when my older ones were this age. 

@wendyroo Thank you for the samples, that is helpful. I want him to get a good overview and not be overwhelmed but I also don't want him bored so I'm really conflicted about where to start him. 

[desertflower]

6 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

It appears you are lol. Can we roam OT for a second. What is your planned science sequence for High School? I'm really up in the air on this.

Tentatively it's:

Path A:

9th -  Clover Valley Chemistry's - Advanced Honors Chemistry  and ChemWoot with AoPS to help prepare to take the Chemistry National Olympiad Exam

10th - Apologia Biology and Clover Valley Chemistry's Intro to Organic and Biochem (He loves this stuff.)

11th - Community College Chemistry and Physics with Athena's Advanced Academy

12 -   Community College Biology

Path B:

9th - Apologia Biology

10th - Clover Valley Chemistry's Intro to Organic and Biochem 

11th - Physics with Athena's

12th - CC Chemistry

What about you?

[desertflower]

5 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I'm thinking about finishing the year with Lantern's Essay Basics or Growing the Essay (I can't decide which one) and if that goes ok then doing another 8 week session this summer. 

For 9th grade I think I want to use The Power in Your Hands. If Lantern is going ok then we can complete some 8 weeks sessions of it too (since it doesn't sound too time consuming). I'm already planning on using Windows to the World next year for literary analysis and will mesh that with some of Excellence in Literature's intro materials (they work well together). 

Does my plan sound solid? Y'all please stop me from doing anything stupid lol 

I didn't think I would have as many decisions to make with my youngest and now I'm looking at high school and rethinking everything. Also, there are so many great online options now that didn't exist when my older ones were this age. 

@wendyroo Thank you for the samples, that is helpful. I want him to get a good overview and not be overwhelmed but I also don't want him bored so I'm really conflicted about where to start him. 

Are you teaching Windows to the World yourself?  Is it self explanatory like WWS?

 

I'm thinking of Schole's American Literature for 9th. It's only 1 high school credit though.  But that would be light enough for him to keep his skills going and concentrate on the Chemistry Olympiad.  Then he can pair it with summer writing courses such as Lantern or Write at Home. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

8 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Tentatively it's:

Path A:

9th -  Clover Valley Chemistry's - Advanced Honors Chemistry  and ChemWoot with AoPS to help prepare to take the Chemistry National Olympiad Exam

10th - Apologia Biology and Clover Valley Chemistry's Intro to Organic and Biochem (He loves this stuff.)

11th - Community College Chemistry and Physics with Athena's Advanced Academy

12 -   Community College Biology

Path B:

9th - Apologia Biology

10th - Clover Valley Chemistry's Intro to Organic and Biochem 

11th - Physics with Athena's

12th - CC Chemistry

What about you?

 

I've really flipped around a lot on this...

9th: Physics (Derek Owens), Bio review to go into AP Bio

10th: AP Bio, Chem (Clover Valley)

11th: AP Chem

12th: AP Physics

Idk man, ask me tomorrow it may change completely 

 

 

2 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Are you teaching Windows to the World yourself?  Is it self explanatory like WWS?

 

I'm thinking of Schole's American Literature for 9th. It's only 1 high school credit though.  But that would be light enough for him to keep his skills going and concentrate on the Chemistry Olympiad.  Then he can pair it with summer writing courses such as Lantern or Write at Home. 

 

I will teach it myself. It is pretty easy to self teach. My girls both really appreciated the literary analysis side of it. You can do it in one semester. 

 

I stumbled across Schole's today. I like so much of their stuff really. I literally just wrote a post about moving DS out of OB and into Schole's for history. I need to look at their lit stuff now. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Tentatively it's:

Path A:

9th -  Clover Valley Chemistry's - Advanced Honors Chemistry  and ChemWoot with AoPS to help prepare to take the Chemistry National Olympiad Exam

10th - Apologia Biology and Clover Valley Chemistry's Intro to Organic and Biochem (He loves this stuff.)

11th - Community College Chemistry and Physics with Athena's Advanced Academy

12 -   Community College Biology

Path B:

9th - Apologia Biology

10th - Clover Valley Chemistry's Intro to Organic and Biochem 

11th - Physics with Athena's

12th - CC Chemistry

What about you?

If your student is a strong math and science student, your Chem sequence in plan A might be redundant. My DD got a 5 on the AP Chem test after taking clover valley Adv Hon Chem. She did have to self study a few topics not covered in the class. But she placed out of first quarter CC Chemistry and can go straight to second quarter. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, WTM said:

If your student is a strong math and science student, your Chem sequence in plan A might be redundant. My DD got a 5 on the AP Chem test after taking clover valley Adv Hon Chem. She did have to self study a few topics not covered in the class. But she placed out of first quarter CC Chemistry and can go straight to second quarter. 

Omg, you've given us gold here lol 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Omg, you've given us gold here lol 

I hesitate to tell you to use Adv H Chem as your AP course, because Connie actually recommends Moskaluk’s course for AP Chem. But I just wanted to make sure you were aware that the content in the class is very robust. 

[desertflower]

Just now, Ann.without.an.e said:

Omg, you've given us gold here lol 

Yes.  I believe WTM is the reason why I'm considering Clover.  I read her reply somewhere. 

CC is free where I live.  We don't plan on taking the AP because it's not accepted everywhere and it's hard to find a place to take it.  Actually, it's just too complicated all around.  So, CC Chem will just be a breeze for him.  But it will be his first or second college course and I want something relatively easy for him as his first course.  Just to get used to being in college, lab on campus, peers and the work load. 

I actually do hope Advanced Honors Chem is hard.  He's currently in H.S. Chemistry and it's not difficult for him, that's why I hope it's hard for him. 

[desertflower]

8 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

I've really flipped around a lot on this...

9th: Physics (Derek Owens), Bio review to go into AP Bio

10th: AP Bio, Chem (Clover Valley)

11th: AP Chem

12th: AP Physics

Idk man, ask me tomorrow it may change completely 

 

 

 

I will teach it myself. It is pretty easy to self teach. My girls both really appreciated the literary analysis side of it. You can do it in one semester. 

 

I stumbled across Schole's today. I like so much of their stuff really. I literally just wrote a post about moving DS out of OB and into Schole's for history. I need to look at their lit stuff now. 

Thanks.  That's good to know.  I believe WTM had recommended Windows to the World to me before as well.  I had a thread about writing sequence as well.  🙂 

[desertflower]

8 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Omg, you've given us gold here lol 

I believe Connie's Adv Hon Chem lacks 3 topics to pass the AP Chem though.  Am I correct WTM?  Thought I read that somewhere. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

24 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Yes.  I believe WTM is the reason why I'm considering Clover.  I read her reply somewhere. 

CC is free where I live.  We don't plan on taking the AP because it's not accepted everywhere and it's hard to find a place to take it.  Actually, it's just too complicated all around.  So, CC Chem will just be a breeze for him.  But it will be his first or second college course and I want something relatively easy for him as his first course.  Just to get used to being in college, lab on campus, peers and the work load. 

I actually do hope Advanced Honors Chem is hard.  He's currently in H.S. Chemistry and it's not difficult for him, that's why I hope it's hard for him. 

Honestly we are up in the air about AP vs DE for DS. I may do a mix. There is a small private school that allowed dd's to test with them for APs but I haven't made contact with them yet to see if they are still ok with that. If they are not then APs are off the table since most of the public schools around here are pretty weird about it.