Rewriting from outlines, writing paragraphs/multipara. compositions - structure?

[Colleen in NS]

When rewriting from an outline, or just in general writing a paragraph (such as for a narration), or writing a multiparagraph composition:

 

1. Is there a *need* to come up with a topic sentence for each paragraph? Or is this an artificial convention made up by writing program creators for some reason? I'm asking, because it seems when outlining another composition, there isn't always a topic sentence in a paragraph. I get that now, so I'm looking at it the other way around - the composing side.

 

2. Do I need to make sure that my kids' narrations/paragraphs follow strictly an order? Like an order of time or importance (as in R&S)?

 

Or, do you think the way WTM/SWB teach writing, writing can be learned somewhat more by imitating good writers rather than sticking to a formula? Do good writers follow these conventions? Or are the conventions like topic sentences, transitions between paragraphs, and orders to a paragraph made up just to have some guidelines to follow?

 

It's seeming to me like the WTM/SWB way is just more natural or something - structured, guided, yet somehow easier. I'm wondering if I will find, as we go along with the WTM methods, that my kids' writing will naturally meet the R&S guidelines for writing (topics of paragraphs being obvious, smooth transitions, everything in order, and whatever else I don't know about yet in R&S).

 

Hoping I make sense in my musings.:blush:

[Melissa B]

I would say a "main idea" is needed for paragraph writing, just as a thesis is need for a composition. A topic sentence is a more concrete way of being sure there is a main idea in the paragraph. I would consider it a beginner's strategy. Once a student understands the concept, she can move from topic sentence and supporting sentences to main idea and supporting evidence.

 

Yes, compositions need to have an "order." But, that order will depend on the thesis. :)

 

I do believe that if you are outlining a good writer there will be an order to the composition and the main ideas followed by supporting evidence will be there as well. It just sometimes takes more time and several readings to put it together.

 

My thoughts would be that outlining an encyclopedia would be similar to finding topic sentences and supporting sentences whereas outlining a good writer's essay would require finding main ideas and supporting evidence.

 

So, rewriting from an outline of an encyclopedia would basically be summary work. And rewriting from a good writer's essay would be work in composition, thesis writing and essay writing.

 

I think WTM tries to start a student with encyclopedia outlines, topic/supporting sentences, summary work and then move the child into essay outlines, main idea/evidence, composition and thesis work.

 

I haven't seen R&S writing, but it sounds like they are doing something similar and I would imagine they intend the student to move on from topic/supporting sentences, proper order, etc. into a standard essay with a thesis, evidence and good flow.

[Kimber]

Writing fiction and non-fiction is different. And I'm not sure which you're asking about.

 

So if your child is writing a narration from a story or fable, then the topic sentence for paragraphs isn't really that important. The paragraph breaks occur everytime the who, what, when, where, why or how changes.

 

In IEW, Pudewa teaches a story sequence outline for narratives that is different from report writing.

 

Paragraphs from non-fiction writing should have topic sentences with supporting details.

 

If this wasn't what you meant, sorry. :)

Edited December 11, 2008 by Kimber

[inashoe]

I understand the problem. When we try to outline something, then there isn't always a clearly laid out topic sentence. It does make outlining a challenge. Sometimes, for example in Kingfisher, the paragraph heading is the topic "sentence" or rather topic phrase.

 

But I would encourage dc to first write their topic sentence, especially with non-fiction.

Even though fiction doesn't always have a topic sentence, I would none-the-less encourage a beginning writer to do one - it gives them some sort of structure to help them, give them ideas of what the supporting detail would be and so helps a beginner to flesh out his writing.

[Colleen in NS]

Once a student understands the concept, she can move from topic sentence and supporting sentences to main idea and supporting evidence.

 

Yes, compositions need to have an "order." But, that order will depend on the thesis. :)

 

I think WTM tries to start a student with encyclopedia outlines, topic/supporting sentences, summary work and then move the child into essay outlines, main idea/evidence, composition and thesis work.

 

This all makes total sense to me. You've talked me back into sticking with teaching with a structure to begin with - it's what I really need to do, or I get lost. I can see the flow from beginner to advanced that you are describing. Thanks!

 

Writing fiction and non-fiction is different. And I'm not sure which you're asking about.

 

Sorry about the confusion - I was talking about non-fiction. It was late when I wrote that post, so I was getting sort of rambly, while thinking to myself out loud.

 

But I would encourage dc to first write their topic sentence, especially with non-fiction.

 

I think I'm going to stick with this for the beginning of this process. I found today, when I tried making a partial 2 level outline for ds to complete and then write a composition from, that the main points of the outline lent themselves to topic sentences in his rewrite anyway.

 

Thanks everyone!

Edited December 11, 2008 by Colleen in NS

[inashoe]

Have you used the Remedia books for Outlining ?

 

I use Outlining with ds10, its take the student through the various stages, including making a composition from an outline.

[Peela]

When rewriting from an outline, or just in general writing a paragraph (such as for a narration), or writing a multiparagraph composition:

 

1. Is there a *need* to come up with a topic sentence for each paragraph? Or is this an artificial convention made up by writing program creators for some reason? I'm asking, because it seems when outlining another composition, there isn't always a topic sentence in a paragraph. I get that now, so I'm looking at it the other way around - the composing side.

 

2. Do I need to make sure that my kids' narrations/paragraphs follow strictly an order? Like an order of time or importance (as in R&S)?

 

Or, do you think the way WTM/SWB teach writing, writing can be learned somewhat more by imitating good writers rather than sticking to a formula? Do good writers follow these conventions? Or are the conventions like topic sentences, transitions between paragraphs, and orders to a paragraph made up just to have some guidelines to follow?

 

It's seeming to me like the WTM/SWB way is just more natural or something - structured, guided, yet somehow easier. I'm wondering if I will find, as we go along with the WTM methods, that my kids' writing will naturally meet the R&S guidelines for writing (topics of paragraphs being obvious, smooth transitions, everything in order, and whatever else I don't know about yet in R&S).

 

Hoping I make sense in my musings.:blush:

 

Here in Australia they don't so much teach that every paragraph needs a topic sentence,, or that a basic essay has 5 paragraphs. I do find the American way to teaching writing a little contrived- but also useful. To me, they're rules we learn, and then learn that it's ok to break them too.

 

However, when you say WTM/SWB teaches writing more naturally than R&S- I am not sure what you mean. SWB very clearly states the need for a writing program in the middle school years, whether it's the one in R&S, or another. Writing programs teach all these things in quite a structured way. I have been reading what SWB says about writing lately. She doesn't feel the imitative technique, or narrations, go far enough for the middle school years.(at least, that is my understanding of what she has said).

[Colleen in NS]

Here in Australia they don't so much teach that every paragraph needs a topic sentence,, or that a basic essay has 5 paragraphs. I do find the American way to teaching writing a little contrived- but also useful. To me, they're rules we learn, and then learn that it's ok to break them too.

 

This is sort of what I was wondering. I guess it's good to learn the structures and rules, and then when they are second nature, you can be a little freer within structure.

 

However, when you say WTM/SWB teaches writing more naturally than R&S- I am not sure what you mean. SWB very clearly states the need for a writing program in the middle school years, whether it's the one in R&S, or another. Writing programs teach all these things in quite a structured way. I have been reading what SWB says about writing lately. She doesn't feel the imitative technique, or narrations, go far enough for the middle school years.(at least, that is my understanding of what she has said).

 

I guess what I meant was more pertaining to narrations in younger grades - I've never seen instruction to "write a topic sentence," then narrate the rest - so it seemed more natural somehow. And now with thinking about rewriting from outlines, I don't remember seeing that type of guidance, either. But I realized today, as I had ds try writing from a 2 level outline, that a topic sentence would be included, from the Roman numeral main point.

 

It takes me awhile to figure things out sometimes. :o