S/O of the CC disadvantages thread

[NCMom]

I'm just thinking out loud here and wondering about the whole dual enrollment thing.

 

What I'm seeing now in a high school co-op class I've been teaching is that dual enrollment classes are not giving ~some~ students enough rigor and the classes are eating up all of their time.

 

The CC classes here are ok but nothing like what some of these kids could be doing at home or online to prepare for college. Some of them have goals that would more or less necessitate them doing SAT II tests (several), getting a REALLY good SAT score (need to start prepping at the beginning of high school...), having a real passion for something and demonstrating it, (doing competitions, internships, research, etc).

 

That's not what what they are doing though. What they are doing is taking a full load at the CC for the last 2 years (not supposed to do that in this state anyway, lol) and assuming that is enough. I can say w/ a fair amount of certainty (and yes I know some of their SAT scores...) - this is not prepping them for entry into a great school. And I'm not 100% convinced it's preparing them all that well for the state schools that it is supposed to be feeding into. :001_huh:

 

Maybe I'm just crazy :001_smile: but our group is having a high school "fair" this spring and I'm hoping to present some other possibilities in a positive light. People just don't seem to get that there are many options and this is not a one-size-fits-all thing.

 

What do you think?

 

Georgia

[Renee in NC]

That's not what what they are doing though. What they are doing is taking a full load at the CC for the last 2 years (not supposed to do that in this state anyway, lol) and assuming that is enough. I can say w/ a fair amount of certainty (and yes I know some of their SAT scores...) - this is not prepping them for entry into a great school. And I'm not 100% convinced it's preparing them all that well for the state schools that it is supposed to be feeding into.

 

 

As someone in your state - I feel the same way about the cc system. My ds' 10th grade Biology class in a ps charter is WAY better and more rigorous than the college transfer Biology my dh took 2 years ago at our local cc. There are good preofessors and better cc, but not all.

 

This is fine for some, but if the goal is Duke, UNC, or some other very selective school, it isn't going to cut it! (Not saying it can't be done, but selective schools get tons of applications that are just the same as this - the student needs to stand out in some way, like you said.)

 

Maybe I'm just crazy but our group is having a high school "fair" this spring and I'm hoping to present some other possibilities in a positive light. People just don't seem to get that there are many options and this is not a one-size-fits-all thing.

 

I would start by interviewing admissions people at various selective schools and determining what *they* want to see (or expect to see.) I would gather info on median SAT score ranges, info on SAT II tests, etc. Maybe give info on what *is* out there besides dual enrollment. Dual enrollment isn't bad (especially for foreign languages), but maybe add how it's possible to do dual enrollment (although not for free) at 4 year colleges and universities.

 

Just some ideas.

[Nan in Mass]

Not so much with my older one, who took just enough CC classes to learn how to "do school" and to validate his ungraded mummy transcript for college applications, but for my youngest. He is probably going to be ahead enough in his math that he might, if he wished, be able to do the 2 year engineering transfer program at the CC. This program has even transfered some students into quite good engineering schools. But is this a good idea? I was just telling my husband this morning that although he probably could go into that in a few years when he is 16, I don't think I want him to. We're not in a hurry to dump him into the working world. And once he's in engineering, he won't get to do many general education courses. I think I'd rather he put time into great books and art and music and learned another foreign language or two. I think for bridge purposes I'll have him do speech at CC, and possibly comp1 (unless I think I can do a better job at home). And if he doesn't slow down in math, he can do his math after pre-calc and his chem and physics there. If he wants, he can consider drawing, an electronics class, and a C++ class. But I think I'll encourage him to spend the rest of his time doing stuff on his own at home, where he can do it at his own pace, delving deeping into the stuff he likes and skimming the stuff he doesn't, where he doesn't have to aquire information in a semester-sized package, where he can choose his reading list for himself, and pick his own paper topics and projects. We chose TWTM for a reason and I don't want to abandon it 2 years early. His whole education has been aimed at being able to do high school this way, his own way. School is still school, even though it is college, and a lot of the same reasons for avoiding it still apply. I don't want my children full-time at school in high school.

 

I can think of several situations where I'd want to send my high schooler full-time to CC. If I wasn't sure I could keep him in school past high school, then I might aim for some sort of college degree, if I thought he needed it to make a good living. Otherwise, I'd keep him home and do as much general education as possible at as high a level as I could, since that would be it for formal education. If I had one going into plumbing, for instance, there would be no need for CC. In other words, I'd use CC for job training. And if I had a child who was going to major in something that wasn't going to pay enough to live on, like possible art or music, then I might encourage them to go to CC for job training in something high paying. That way, they would have a fall-back.

 

I'm not in any way complaining about CC. Our experience has been good and I am very grateful to them. They have allowed me to be very relaxed about the rest of homeschooling and just concentrate on education, not grades or textbooks, because I could rely on those CC classes to bridge and validate, and then rely on their 4-year colleges to supply career training.

 

I'm interested to hear what others say.

-Nan

[Sandra in NC]

I agree with you that some online high school courses can be more rigorous and worthwhile than community college courses. But I think there are several different views of college including "a degree is a degree" and it doesn't matter where you get it. In that case, building credits at CC is efficient and helps financially. There are many state schools that are like CC - not rigorous - and transfer of the credits shouldn't be a problem. The level of work expected will be similar and the student will do just fine.

 

Having a son who wants to be an artist has given me an appreciation for "how can we earn college credits cheaply and quickly." He wants a degree for no other reason than it's so expected/necessary for ANYONE nowadays who is not in a skilled trade. We're paying out of state tuition and I'd love for him to take CLEP tests or get ACE credit -- especially for the non-art courses he needs like sociology, ethics, and math.

 

So, I can appreciate why homeschoolers would want to earn maximum college credits during high school. And I think the students aspiring to competitive colleges will do what they need to do to get in. They'll research at College Confidential and learn what scores they need...what volunteer work...AP courses, SAT II, etc.

[Gwen in VA]

Absolutely! :iagree:

 

The path a hs'er should take through high school all depends on the student and his hopes and aspirations and passions, the parents and their willingness to be taxidrivers and their financial resources, other adults and their willingness to mentor, and then how much time they want to devote not only to academics in general but to a specific class.

 

AP's......SAT2's,,,,,CC classes......classes at a local 4-yar college......classes at home......internships......volunteering.......involvement in extracurriculars.....so many options.

 

Every community seems to have some neat opportunities. Locally we have Lego robotics teams, fife and drum corps, and an amazing array of historical museums. But virtually no homeschool sports teams are available, and hs'ers can't participate in ps teams. (Good news -- my kids don't do sports!) You need to either find what is available locally or you need to create it.

 

And sometimes one great opportunity will involve not being able to do something else. There are only 24 hours in a day. Dd1 reluctantly gave up debate after her freshman year so she could pursue other interests.

 

Last spring I gave a talk on homeschooling high school where I talked about how to help your child find his passion. I guess I scared several people, who thought that high school was just a check-the-box operation. However, the dd of one woman who attended went out the next day and got a volunteer position at the local hospital (she wants to be a nurse), so at least I had a positive influence on one family! So many people just looked at me like I had two heads after the talk! :confused:

 

I figure that part of our job as parents is to help our children find their path in the world, and part of that entails figuring out what your children's passions are and then helping to pursue them as much as possible. That may involve rigorous academics -- AP's and SATs'2 and outside classes with teachers who are willing to write recs -- but it also will probably involve getting out into the community in some way.

 

Having had two kids graduate, we thought we would know what we are doing with the third. Well, we don't. Kids are all different. Academically, he isn't as good a "tester" as the older two so we are concerned that he may not get 5's on AP exams. So that leaves CC classes, but the CC is quite a drive from our house and we are concerned about the quality of the classes. And while we want him to take some classes at W&M, he can't do many there for financial reasons. Decisions, decisions. We are praying for inspiration between now and next fall! At least he has had several community-involvement opportunities fall into his lap and he is definitely pursuing his rather eclectic passions.

[Brenda in MA]

that the high school years are not one size fits all, and to make the best use of that time, one has to tailor the schooling to the child. I also think helping the child find his passions and helping him think about how he will support himself in the long run is very important during the high school years.

 

I've been pondering this whole idea of high school as well, as my 7th grader is almost there. I'm not sure if I want him to follow the same path of courses his older brother did because he's quite different in a lot of ways.

 

I have had some trouble, though, with thinking about helping him find his passions. His brother was a clear engineer from the age of about 2 yo. He took things apart (and still does), tinkers, reads techie publications in his spare time, etc. It was really easy to encourage/nurture his passions because it was really clear what they were/are.

 

The 7th grader is a toughie. He's a good student, and he loves almost every subject. He's mostly a joy to teach, and I'm really thankful for that. But it seems hard to help him ID his passions because he loves so many things. I can say that he is/has been passionate about origami, paper airplanes, Bionicles, and whales over the years, but I'm not sure I see a united theme there.

 

Any more thoughts on identifying passions?

 

TIA,

Brenda

[Gwen in VA]

Some passions don't emerge before high school simply because they CAN'T!

 

A couple of examples of what I mean --

 

Ds1 spent much of his high school years debating. That was his first love in high school. But he didn't get involved until 8th grade simply because debating is a high school activity. Aside from possibly elemntary public speaking classes, there is nothing that really would qualify as "pre-debate."

 

A friend of mine has a son who is spending most of his high school time involved in his church's worship ministry. He started doing sound in 9th grade and has taught himself guitar and is now one of the lead players. He didn't have any music lessons before 9th grade and they had no idea that he would be so passionate about the church worship ministry.

 

Dd1 spent a huge amount of time in high school vounteering at a local history museum. She docented and eventually she was encouraged to write a guide for a particular exhibit. Someone donated the $6K needed to publish the guide, and it will come out sometime around Christmas. This all sounds great -- but we had no idea when she was in 7th grade that she would develop such a love of museums and artifacts that she would go into art conservation! Aside from sewing, she became involved in all of her high school activities in high school not before -- debate, volunteering, fife and drum.

 

So keep an eye out for opportunities that might be interesting for your son. Best wishes -- finding the right activity can be hard.

 

A friend's son couldn't figure out what he was interested in. He spent a summer volunteering with a surveyor. He discovered many things about himself -- he not only doesn't want to be a surveyor but he HATES working outside. That isn't the result his parents were hoping for, but even knowing that he absolutely needs an office job is useful!

 

My son is interested in engineering. He designs and builds stunt kites, and so taught himself to sew. Now he volunteers at the Jamestown Costume Shop. That isn't exactly engineering, but working on costumes involves 3-D visualization, hand skills, and lots of problem-solving, and he appreciates the camaraderie among the folks who work there. Okay, costuming is only tangentially related to engineering, but I will be interested to see how God uses this. Maybe sail design?

[Laurie4b]

Actually, I've heard from friends that the admissions officers at UNC-CH told them that the cadre who does best at UNC is Durham Tech transfers: they get good grades and are less likely than other groups to drop out. It's possible that that group is somewhat older and focused exclusively on their education (as opposed to social life, etc.)

 

UNC prefers a mix of cc, SATII, and AP tests in combo with good SAT scores in applications from homeschool students. They admit a higher percentage of homeschool applicants than other applicants.

[Renee in NC]

Actually, I've heard from friends that the admissions officers at UNC-CH told them that the cadre who does best at UNC is Durham Tech transfers: they get good grades and are less likely than other groups to drop out. It's possible that that group is somewhat older and focused exclusively on their education (as opposed to social life, etc.)

 

UNC prefers a mix of cc, SATII, and AP tests in combo with good SAT scores in applications from homeschool students. They admit a higher percentage of homeschool applicants than other applicants.

 

I have always heard that Durham Tech was the best college transfer school. Is it because many of the professors there teach at UNC, Duke, Central, etc. as well? There is a broad range of what is required from different schools - my dh went to CCCC (Sanford) and it was not very good. I went to Alamance years ago and it also was pretty bad (my first semester after transferring to Campbell was VERY difficult as the rigor of work was not even comparable.)

 

My oldest wants to take classes through dual-enrollment, but I am not sure if I want him to do that.