Experience with LL8 and LLTLOTR

[NewIma]

I am conflicted and hoping some of the high school parents can help me! We are finishing up LL7 this week and I am trying to figure out our next step. Some people love LLTLOTR but others say it can be a little light. If you have experience with LL8 and LLTLOTR which do you think is more challenging? My debate is do I have my dc do LL8 over the next year and a half (second half of 7th grade and all of 8th) and then do LLTLOTR for 9th, or only do half of LL8 this year to finish up 7th (cut short stories and poetry to focus on the novels) and then do LLTLOTR for 8th.  I feel like there isnt enough time to do all I want to do! 🙂 Thank you for any insight you have! 

[Lori D.]

We have experience with both LL and LLftLotR. And we have done them in both orders (LL8 first / LLftLotR second -- and -- LLftLotR first / LL8 second). It worked fine in either order, but because we were also doing WTM-style lit., whichever program came 2nd ended up feeling a bit "lite" because it came after having done a deeper lit. ala WTM style.

Also, LL8 and LLftLotR are pretty different programs, so it's hard to say that one is "harder" than another -- I see them more like "side steps" from one another, all around a similar gentle intro level of beginning literary analysis. LL7 and LL8 are similar, with LL8 being 1/3 again longer, and taking on new literary lessons/devices. The first half of LL8 is very similar in level to Lay, while  the second half of LL8 gets more in-depth and starts to guide the student in beginning literary analysis through the work pages.

In contrast, LLftLotR has NO work pages and NO writing "mini lessons" like LL7/8 (although there are writing assignment ideas). The explanations of literary devices in LLftLotR are briefer, but they are discussed where they occur in every one of the chapter notes. LLftLotR does not have the work pages of LL, but it does have the 12 in-depth additional units of material on literature topics, which is something LL7/8 does not have.

Perhaps you don't need to do both programs? 
- How much has your student enjoyed/connected with/learned from LL7? (if yes, then continue with LL8; if not much, then switch to LLftLotR)
- How interested/excited is your student in reading and doing a year-long study on the trilogy (if very interested, then go with LLftLotR, if only so-so, then skip and just go on to LL8)
- How much learning of guided analysis does the student need? (If needing that, then go with LL8; if ready to branch out, then try LLftLotR)

OR... why not do both simultaneously for a great 1.5 years of middle school Lit? Do LLftLotR as a fun "elective" (skipping the fill-in-the blank comprehension and vocabulary pages), and do it alongside LL8. You can skip around in the 12 units of literature topics in LLftLotR, so if you don't get to all of them in the next 1.5 years, you could add them in for fun afterwards. Or skip the ones of lower interest.

A possible schedule:
Sat/Sun = LLftLotR = 60-90 minutes = read 2 chapters of LotR as a family read-aloud
Mondays = LLftLotR = 45-60 minutes = together/aloud, do the 2 chapter notes/discussions for the 2 chapters just read
Tues/Wed/Thurs = LL8 = 60 minutes = read book/discuss as you go 35-40 minutes + 20-25 minutes for the lit. lesson and work pages
Fridays = alternate = 60 minutes = work on LL8, or, work one of the 12 units of LLftLotR

Why this would have worked for us is because we liked Lit. a lot and were fine with spending a lot of time on Lit. Also, the way we had adapted LL8 and LLftLotR to fit our needs made it possible to do additional Lit..

For LL8, we typically spent about 50 min/day, 4 days/week (roughly 3.5 hours/week)
- 35-40 min. = reading the books aloud  "buddy style" and discussing as we read (about 35-40 min/day)
- 15-20 min. = read the LL8 literature lesson; do the work pages for about 15-20 min/day).

We did the LL work pages and literature lesson reading simultaneously with the literature reading. The literature lesson usually was read/discussed in 2 sittings. We skipped the "busywork" work pages, which left 8 pages to do. We would go ahead and start reading the next novel as we finished up the work pages for the poetry or short story pages, so we always moving forward with both the work pages AND reading the lit. We only did selected writing assignments, and when we did do a LL8 writing assignment, we would set aside the daily writing program that we were doing in addition to LL8. (We spent about 25-30 min/day on the separate writing program.)

For LLftLotR,  we typically spent about 3 hours/week:
- 60-90 min. = reading the chapters aloud  "buddy style" and discussing as we read (usually took 1-2 sessions)
- 45-50 min. = read/discuss the chapter notes for those 2 chapters (1 session)
- 60-90 min. = read/discuss each unit (usually 2-3 sessions)

We adapted LLftLotR by skipping the fill-in-the-blank comprehension and vocabulary pages. We did not care for the writing assignments, so we skipped those (and did writing for other lit.). We shuffled the unit material around to better fit what else we were doing.


BEST of luck in deciding what works best for your family, and enjoy your Literature journey, whatever that ends up being! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Lori D.

[NewIma]

Wow Lori!! Thank you so much for taking the time to give me such a thorough reply! Your insight is so incredibly helpful! Can you expand a little on what is involved in the 12 in-depth additional studies in the LOTR program? Thank you so much!!!

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, NewIma said:

Can you expand a little on what is involved in the 12 in-depth additional studies in the LOTR program? Thank you so much!!!

I forgot -- there were "bonus" units:

end of book 1 (first half of Fellowship of the Ring)
#1 - Exploring the author -- 6.5 pages; informational/background; choice of 2 writing assign. ideas
#2 - Exploring language: linguistics and philology -- 7 pages; informational/background; choice of 4 writing assign. & project ideas

end of book 2 (second half of Fellowship of the Ring)
#3 - Exploring setting - 7 pages; informational/background; choice of 4 writing assign. & project ideas
#4 - Exploring maps - 4.5 pages; multiple-choice activity looking at the book's maps
#5 - Exploring epics - 15.5 pages; summary of Odyssey, Iliad, and Aeneid; info on 11 epic conventions; choice of 5 writing & project ideas

end of book 3 (first half of The Two Towers)
#6a - Exploring Beowulf - 5.5 pages; background info on author/times of Beowulf & influence on Tolkien
#6b - Exploring Beowulf - 7.5 pages; summaries and excerpts from first half of Beowulf
#7a - Exploring Beowulf - 7.5 pages; summaries and excerpts from second half of Beowulf
#7b - Exploring Beowulf - 3.5 pages; study guide info about Beowulf; choice of 6 writing assign. and project ideas

end of book 4 (second half of The Two Towers)
#8 - Exploring Genre: Fantasy Genre - 7.5 pages; informational/background; choice of 3 writing assign. & project ideas
#9 - Exploring Poetry: info on poetic meter; 3 poems with fill-in the rhyme scheme; info on form & structure; 6 poems with questions

end of book 5 (first half of Return of the King)
#10 - Exploring King Arthur: his story - 8.5 pages; info on King Arthur, with excerpts from Tennyson's poem
#11 - Exploring King Arthur: Arthur in literature - 14.5 pages; info and excerpts from Sir Gawain; choice of 8 writing assign. & project ideas

end of book 6 (second half of Return of the King)
#12 - What happens after the end of the book - 9 pages; info on using the appendices and fill-in-the blank questions
#13 - Unifying Elements (Literary Devices) - 5 pages; info on literary criticism, theme, leitmotif; choice of 5 writing assign. & project ideas

bonus units (appendix of LLftLotR)
#14 - Comparing with the Films - 4.5 pages; informational/background; 1 suggested writing assign.
#15 - Religious Elements - 8.5 pages; info on biblical themes, imagery, characterizations; 3 suggested writing assign. & project ideas

[8filltheheart]

I'm on my 5th time teaching LLfLOTR. I have never been able to complete it in a yr. My 8th grade and I will complete over this and next yr. It takes us so long bc we spend so much time reading the works mentioned in the units and so studies on those, too. (Plus read books like The Tolkien Reader and the Silmarillion. ) We have so much fun with the study. I love it.

[NewIma]

Thank you again Lori! What a wonderful description!

Thank you 8FillTheHeart! 

You have both inspired me! I just ordered LLfLOTR so I can look at it and LL8 in person. I really want to do both of them so I may just do LL8 for the rest of 7th and 8th grade, then do LLfLOTR with all of the additional units for 9th. 

Another possibility is to do LL8 for individual work for dc, then slowly work through LLfLOTR over 2 years as a family literature project. We have been working our way through the Little House books, so maybe this could be a similar project? 

Thank you for your help in thinking this through! 

[Lori D.]

11 hours ago, NewIma said:

...Another possibility is to do LL8 for individual work for dc, then slowly work through LLfLOTR over 2 years as a family literature project. We have been working our way through the Little House books, so maybe this could be a similar project? 

That sounds like a super idea! I know I've read that a few people on these boards have had a younger sibling as young as grade 5-6 tag along and do LLftLotR as a family project. Have fun!

ETA: P.S.
If interested in exploring bunny trails while doing LLftLotR like 8FillTheHeart does (quoted below), check out this lengthy past thread with tons of links to fun extension and exploration ideas: "Any serious Tolkien fans..."

15 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I'm on my 5th time teaching LLfLOTR. I have never been able to complete it in a yr. My 8th grade and I will complete over this and next yr. It takes us so long bc we spend so much time reading the works mentioned in the units and so studies on those, too. (Plus read books like The Tolkien Reader and the Silmarillion. ) We have so much fun with the study. I love it.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Lori D.