R&S English Users- Writing Questions

[SkiMom]

We've been using R&S English quite happily for several years now, but I have some questions about using their writing lessons more effectively.

 

1. Most other writing programs teach about the "writing process" (pre-writing, first draft, revising/editing, publishing), but Rod & Staff doesn't seem to...as far as I can tell. Do you teach this process? How do you incorporate it?

 

2. When do your dc use the different types of writing that they are learning? How do you have them practice it? Or are they only doing some of this writing during English? For example, we are about to get into a whole chapter on writing research reports, but if I follow the WTM logic stage rec's we will really never use this knowledge. In history all we are doing is outlining, and writing summaries....no research reports. I know that WTM doesn't recommend writing research reports until the rhetoric stage, but how will they get to practice what they have learned? What do you do?

 

3. What about other writing projects. Do you add anything else? The reason I was asking this is because I was browsing through a copy of Sonlight's LA and saw all kinds of fun writing projects that my dc won't be doing...like, write a puppet show....design a board game...write invitations...journals, etc. Generally I don't like SL's LA, but some of these projects looked like fun. I want my dc to enjoy writing, and see that writing is used in other areas of life and not just for school. KWIM? So, if you do add other writing, what do you use, and how much do you add?

 

Thanks for your input!

[MIch elle]

R&S English does teach the writing process that your referring to (pre-writing {outline}, first draft, etc.) in I think gr. 7 or 8.

 

 

Find something fun and do it addition to R&S writing. Families Writing is fun.

[Ellie]

1. Most other writing programs teach about the "writing process" (pre-writing, first draft, revising/editing, publishing), but Rod & Staff doesn't seem to...as far as I can tell. Do you teach this process? How do you incorporate it?

IMHO, many other programs overteach the writing process. There are no rules for how many first drafts or revising/editing or anything else. It is not a big deal: child writes, teacher corrects, child rewrites.

 

2. When do your dc use the different types of writing that they are learning? How do you have them practice it? Or are they only doing some of this writing during English? For example, we are about to get into a whole chapter on writing research reports, but if I follow the WTM logic stage rec's we will really never use this knowledge. In history all we are doing is outlining, and writing summaries....no research reports. I know that WTM doesn't recommend writing research reports until the rhetoric stage, but how will they get to practice what they have learned? What do you do?

I didn't do much teaching of these skills at home, since my dds did community college instead of high school, but when *I* was in school, I only did research papers in English, not in any other subject. However, what I learned was enough that if I'd had to write a paper, I could have done it easily. I think that's the point, don't you? To be prepared for any contingencies.

 

3. What about other writing projects. Do you add anything else? The reason I was asking this is because I was browsing through a copy of Sonlight's LA and saw all kinds of fun writing projects that my dc won't be doing...like, write a puppet show....design a board game...write invitations...journals, etc. Generally I don't like SL's LA, but some of these projects looked like fun. I want my dc to enjoy writing, and see that writing is used in other areas of life and not just for school. KWIM? So, if you do add other writing, what do you use, and how much do you add?

Are you sure that your dc would enjoy designing a board game? write a puppet show? just because you assigned it? Now, if they have the freedom to use their imaginations in other ways than just doing schoolwork, and they *want* to design a game board, wouldn't that be more truly educational? I'm not convinced that requiring dc to do things like that will actually make them enjoy writing. (Invitations are part of life, so of course they should learn to write those; and I don't see a purpose in requiring children to keep journals. I always thought people kept journals because they wanted to write down their thoughts. Just doesn't seem right to *require* that.)

[Rhondabee]

#1: I do think R&S teaches the steps of writing, but not as "These are the Steps of Writing" (typed in my big announcer voice - LOL!)

 

But, I put this into practice when we do writing in history or science or literature. It's only natural to first plan what you're going to write about - especially when they hit 5th grade, and are told to write a paragraph about *one* topic, not just a verbose re-hashing of the entire story. Then, after it's written, we proof it, and file it. So, it's not a big, drawn-out process; but lots of little, quick, relatively painless practices.

 

#2: I keep a mental record of the various types of writing each ds has covered (actually, now with two, I may need to tighten up my ship and actually start writing this down!). Then, for most everything they write (esp. w/5th grader), we classify it and talk about how to develop the topic sentence (or how the essay should flow). So, for example, my 8th grader is about ready to write a comparison/contrast paper on the Boxers and the Ghost Dancers. Comparisons were a type of composition he studied in R&S about 5 lessons ago, so he has that lesson to refer back to.

 

My 5th grader is still in developing paragraphs in the order of time or the order of importance, or in steps. So while I'm pre-reading SOTW, I'm really looking for ideas and why people did things, or an opinion he might have which can be supported by reasons in the order of importance. Science just offers tons of ideas for Order of Time paragraphs.

 

I'm not concerned about writing research papers. Whenever my kids look at two different sources for history information, and then synthesize that into one paper, they are using the basic process on a smaller scale. For example, my son's comparison paper mentioned above will require getting information from more than one source. That one may be deep enough that he will find it more time-efficient to take notes, but I haven't felt a need to have him take notes for a paper before. Usually he just absorbs, makes a pre-writing plan, and writes it.

 

WTM assigns 5-6 page research papers in both 9th and 10th grades, in history, science and maybe lit. To each his own, but I think the mini-research papers in R&S (usually two or three lessons - not really a whole chapter), the 3/4 - 1 1/2 page reports we have done in history and science, and the knowledge he will gain in Rhetoric next year before those papers are due will be adequate preparation.

 

#3: I am blessed (?) with very practical "just-the-facts" kind of boys. I, too, look at lists of writing projects such as you mentioned and *wish* my boys would *want* to do those creative sort of things. But, they don't. They *hate* creative assignments. Creative assignments for kids without that artistic flair are *not* fun.

 

And, I know from their public school days (and my own), that those things are easy to do without any learning going on. So, I don't feel guilty for not offering those as assignments. My boys *will* have to write one day - they will only design a board game if that's their talent. If you like them, though, just look online at some teacher's websites Google just about any book, and you'll find *lots* of teacher websites with lists of "alternative book reports".

 

Blessings!

Edited November 20, 2008 by Rhondabee

[SkiMom]

#1: I do think R&S teaches the steps of writing, but not as "These are the Steps of Writing" (typed in my big announcer voice - LOL!)

 

But, I put this into practice when we do writing in history or science or literature. It's only natural to first plan what you're going to write about - especially when they hit 5th grade, and are told to write a paragraph about *one* topic, not just a verbose re-hashing of the entire story. Then, after it's written, we proof it, and file it. So, it's not a big, drawn-out process; but lots of little, quick, relatively painless practices.

 

 

It may seem like a natural step, but I was never taught how to plan my writing (or at least I don't remember :)) and it isn't coming naturally to my dc either. After looking at other programs that teach writing I've seen that they use different methods to help a child plan their writing...like making lists, brainstorming and using graphic organizers. I can see the benefit in going through this process with my dc as they tend to be unorganized and unfocused, and don't always know how to proceed. Also, my ds takes great offense at the thought that that his writing could be improved upon, and his punctuation and spelling may need to be corrected. He wants to write once and be done with it. I guess he needed it explained to him, earlier, that this is a normal part of writing. Anyway, I do understand what you are saying, and truthfully the way you do it is the way we have been doing it too...I am just wondering if teaching them the process in a more formal way would be helpful. It also might force us to slow our writing down. Some of the assignments could be stretched to take a couple of days if we went through the steps of the writing process. I find now that we are doing them in one or two sessions and I don't always remember to check for all the things they have learned...as you mention below.

 

 

#2: I keep a mental record of the various types of writing each ds has covered (actually, now with two, I may need to tighten up my ship and actually start writing this down!). Then, for most everything they write (esp. w/5th grader), we classify it and talk about how to develop the topic sentence (or how the essay should flow). So, for example, my 8th grader is about ready to write a comparison/contrast paper on the Boxers and the Ghost Dancers. Comparisons were a type of composition he studied in R&S about 5 lessons ago, so he has that lesson to refer back to.

 

My 5th grader is still in developing paragraphs in the order of time or the order of importance, or in steps. So while I'm pre-reading SOTW, I'm really looking for ideas and why people did things, or an opinion he might have which can be supported by reasons in the order of importance. Science just offers tons of ideas for Order of Time paragraphs.

 

I'm not concerned about writing research papers. Whenever my kids look at two different sources for history information, and then synthesize that into one paper, they are using the basic process on a smaller scale. For example, my son's comparison paper mentioned above will require getting information from more than one source. That one may be deep enough that he will find it more time-efficient to take notes, but I haven't felt a need to have him take notes for a paper before. Usually he just absorbs, makes a pre-writing plan, and writes it.

 

WTM assigns 5-6 page research papers in both 9th and 10th grades, in history, science and maybe lit. To each his own, but I think the mini-research papers in R&S (usually two or three lessons - not really a whole chapter), the 3/4 - 1 1/2 page reports we have done in history and science, and the knowledge he will gain in Rhetoric next year before those papers are due will be adequate preparation.

 

This is exactly what I am talking about. For history my dc are only doing outlines and summaries of the information they have read. In literature all they are writing is narrations or summaries. In the WTM that is all that is recommended for lit/history logic stage writing assignments. It didn't even dawn on me to have my dc write a compare/contrast paper, or to write a paragraph to support opinions in order of importance. I guess I need to come up with assignments like from their history and science so that they can practice using what they have been taught in writing. This is exactly what I wanted to know...thanks!!

 

 

#3: I am blessed (?) with very practical "just-the-facts" kind of boys. I, too, look at lists of writing projects such as you mentioned and *wish* my boys would *want* to do those creative sort of things. But, they don't. They *hate* creative assignments. Creative assignments for kids without that artistic flair are *not* fun.

 

And, I know from their public school days (and my own), that those things are easy to do without any learning going on. So, I don't feel guilty for not offering those as assignments. My boys *will* have to write one day - they will only design a board game if that's their talent. If you like them, though, just look online at some teacher's websites Google just about any book, and you'll find *lots* of teacher websites with lists of "alternative book reports".

 

Blessings!

 

I agree. I've seen my sister's kids being made to do tons of elaborate, "creative" projects, and really, the learning value in them is not worth the effort as far as I can tell. It seems like busy work to me. However, my math/science oriented son...for some reason...loves to do these kind of writing projects. He is constantly designing brochures, business cards, posters, puzzle books, etc. He even wrote math worksheet pages for his little sister. I know he would absolutely love to design a board game! :) I know that each child is different and each has different strengths and talents...and this type of writing is not necessarily fun for everyone...but I've noticed this interest with my son (my daughter has these leanings too) and I would like to give him some more ideas and encourage him. I will do a web search for more ideas. Thanks for your input!

[Rhondabee]

Sounds like your doing quite well!

 

I chuckled knowingly at your description of your son & his opinion of his writing - LOL! I wonder if there has there ever been a male child who *didn't* think his work was perfect in its imperfection? =) My older son especially resented (resents) having to re-write things.

 

That's where having a pre-writing plan which doesn't require much writing is very helpful - that plan *is* the rough draft. For your plan, you can use a graphic organizer if you'd like, and use keywords and phrases only. I do help my 5th grader get his topic sentence complete. Then, the writing doesn't have to be "re-written", merely checked for spelling, punctuation, that sort of thing. And, occasionally we'll re-work a sentence or two.

 

But - please note - my ***8th*** grader is doing a comparison essay because that was already covered in his R&S. I don't ever assign an essay-type or paragraph-type that hasn't been covered by his writing curriculum. I can't remember off the top of my head what is covered in R&S-6, but I know that comparison and persuasion are *not* covered until 8th grade.

 

Keep up the good work~

[Colleen in NS]

This is exactly what I am talking about. For history my dc are only doing outlines and summaries of the information they have read. In literature all they are writing is narrations or summaries. In the WTM that is all that is recommended for lit/history logic stage writing assignments. It didn't even dawn on me to have my dc write a compare/contrast paper, or to write a paragraph to support opinions in order of importance. I guess I need to come up with assignments like from their history and science so that they can practice using what they have been taught in writing. This is exactly what I wanted to know...thanks!!

 

Rhonda explained some of this to me a few months ago, too. So I started looking through my R&S 5 (and 6-8) TMs, to see what kind of writing lessons were in them. I started thinking about how to apply them to the WTM style narrations and outlines. What I mostly saw (at least in the grade 5 and maybe grade 6, but I'd have to go dig it out to confirm....) was paragraph development lessons. Then, it made sense to me. We did WTM style narrations in grades 1-4, and now in grade 5, with still doing lit. narrations plus some sci. and hist. narrations, this was the time to learn to develop those narrations into good paragraphs. And once the paragraph is understood, then we can move up to writing several paragraphs (in sci., hist., or lit.). Then there are the outlining lessons, which are helpful in starting to teach outlining this year and applying that skill to history or science writing. There is the occasional letter writing lesson in R&S, so each time we learn something new there, we apply it to letter writing, which I try to assign a couple of times a month (which I'd never have thought of, if I hadn't seen it in WTM - but after seeing the R&S lessons, again, it made sense - it's good communication practice, as are the other writing lessons).

 

Rhonda, I've seen a few of your writing posts the past couple of days - they are very good and I'm gleaning more and more bits from you - thanks! Teaching writing still freaks me out at times, and I will be so thankful when SWB gets her next writing book done.

[SkiMom]

Thanks Rhonda. I understand what you are saying about the pre-writing. As I said earlier, it really is pretty much what we are already doing. It also helps that my ds types all his writing assignments, so editing/correcting really isn't that big of a deal! It is rather quick, and painless...except on my son's ego. :) I guess I really should stop looking at those "other" writing programs, and keep it simple. And actually FYI...in R&S6 there is a lesson on developing paragrahs by comparison or contrast. It wasn't a paper or essay...just a paragraph...but it was enough to put me in a panic!

 

Colleen, thanks for your helpful input. I guess I just couldn't see how to use what we have learned, but what you have explained makes sense. I will have to spend more time making sure my dc are transferring those paragraph development skills to their summaries and narrations. BTW...when do you have your dc start writing from their outlines? And oh yes!...I'm another one anxiously waiting for SWB's next writing book. I do hope it's done before my dc are out of the logic stage!

 

Thanks again!!

[Riverfront Headmistress]

Just jumping in on the "creative projects" ps students are required to do. I have an 11th grade Finnish exchange student who has just completed week 12 of school. To date, she has not written any papers; however, she has been slammed with creative projects. Creative projects are busy work imho. My children are always coming up with these type projects in their own time, but during school, I expect at-level assignments to be completed.

[Colleen in NS]

when do you have your dc start writing from their outlines?

 

My son is in 5th grade, so he hasn't started writing from an outline yet (except for a R&S lesson on it the other day and he did quite well with it). I had planned to spend this whole year having him do just one level outlines (for which I got another great idea on how to teach it from Rhonda recently!), and move to 2 level in 6th, with possibly starting rewrites in 6th or 7th. But I'm just not sure yet. I'm going by SWB's Writing Without Fear CD and a small blurb in WWE about that. Sorta feeling my way blindly here as I wait for the book.

[Colleen in NS]

in R&S6 there is a lesson on developing paragrahs by comparison or contrast. It wasn't a paper or essay...just a paragraph...but it was enough to put me in a panic!

 

Just musing here and looking ahead, but I'm wondering if this is just another example of a skill we should teach, practice it on that ONE paragraph a few times in the content areas, and file the skill away for use in high school. R&S reviews things so much, I'll bet they review this through 7th and 8th, too.....which might help US not to panic (I panic, too) - knowing it'll be reviewed and then be useful in high school.

[SkiMom]

I had planned to spend this whole year having him do just one level outlines (for which I got another great idea on how to teach it from Rhonda recently!),

 

 

Oh please share!!

TIA!

[Colleen in NS]

Oh please share!!

TIA!

 

OK, let me see if I can think this out here....

 

I was looking at the R&S grade 5 outlining lessons one day (where you outline from a composition - lessons 34 and 38). I wondered why it was a 2 level outline ("but SWB said to do just one level outlines in grade 5!" I panicked). Later I read a post of Rhondabee's where she said something about writing a partial outline for her son and had him fill in the rest of it. So then I thought, "Hey, that's like where R&S is modeling the process - they give the main idea and part of the subtopic for you to fill in." This way, the student gets to *see* what R&S thinks is the main idea, and what is the subtopic.

 

I had been going about it all wrong - I'd try and think of a million different ways to help my son find the main idea (esp. frustrating when there is no obvious topic sentence in regular sci./hist. reading - which I have since learned, from other mothers here, is common - not all writing will be neatly laid out like the examples in R&S, yet if it's good writing, each paragraph WILL have one topic - you just have to figure out what it is). After reading what Rhonda did, and thinking about how R&S taught it, I thought, why don't I steer ds's thinking from "try and figure out what the main idea is, what is the author talking about overall" to "what are the exact details here in this paragraph? Now, what general theme are those details talking about - and it doesn't have to be explicity stated in the paragraph?"

 

It just seemed like, if I pointed out the details to him (or he pointed out the details), he was better able to figure out the overall idea. It's the same idea as what R&S did, with listing partial details, or what I think Rhonda was talking about, with filling in her partial outline. I was having ds work blindly, but the models gave him something to work with. It has worked much better.

 

I'm thinking the further we go, what I'll do is also start pointing out details that support subtopics of main ideas, so that 3rd level outlining will come easily for him, too. But I think it has to be me that shows him the details, so he gets what I'm talking about. I think eventually he will understand how to go about figuring out the paragraph's structure for the outline. It's that principle of modeling it first, which I didn't get before.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Colleen in NS

[SkiMom]

I had been going about it all wrong - I'd try and think of a million different ways to help my son find the main idea (esp. frustrating when there is no obvious topic sentence in regular sci./hist. reading - which I have since learned, from other mothers here, is common - not all writing will be neatly laid out like the examples in R&S,

 

This has been our struggle too! In fact I recently posted a question about this exact thing.

 

 

I'm thinking the further we go, what I'll do is also start pointing out details that support subtopics of main ideas, so that 3rd level outlining will come easily for him, too. But I think it has to be me that shows him the details, so he gets what I'm talking about. I think eventually he will understand how to go about figuring out the paragraph's structure for the outline. It's that principle of modeling it first, which I didn't get before.

 

This is a great idea! The only problem is that I'm not sure *I* can pick out those details myself!:blush: I don't ever remember learning outlining in school so I feel very inadequate here. This is a very good idea though and I'm sure if we work at it together we will both learn how to do it.

 

Thanks so much for sharing Colleen!!