Sluggish Cognitive Tempo

[Mom of Heathens]

Hi. My oldest daughter attended a private high school last year. She was tested for a learning difference at the beginning of the year. I don't know if anyone is familiar with SCT, but the short version is that she gets the information, just at a slower pace. She can't do timed tests, she struggles with even moving quickly so sports was never her thing. She is in high school and we have been struggling a bit with trying to figure out curriculum. We just started homeschooling this year for her in order to make up the classes she failed last year. She seems massively unmotivated about what her plans are once she is done with school...heck even what her interests are now...and this is why I am struggling. There is so much contradicting information about what she has to have or doesn't. I guess I am just a little lost and looking for a little guidance. She is nearly caught up to where she needs to be, but I am trying to figure out where to go from here. We went with a homeschool that one of her friends did and that was okay for the purpose of catching her up to speed, but we don't particularly like it. She was looking at the Time4Learning site and that seemed okay, but I am just feeling a little overwhelmed with all of the information on homeschooling...and it seems like most of it has been geared towards younger kiddos.  Any advice would be appreciated. 

[PeterPan]

Welcome! Yes, we've had some threads on sluggish cognitive tempo. So how old is she and what grade will she be in the fall and what precisely do you want? It is important that the option be a particular pricepoint or can it be something you pull together and do yourself? How eclectic do you want to be?

As far as her work dynamic, any issues there? Can she work from a list, keep her room clean (haha), and complete an assignment with a delayed due date (1-2 weeks) on time? Does she currently work from a checklist or other planner and how is that going? And does she have any disabilities or things that are unusually hard for her even if they aren't diagnosed as an SLD? Can she type?

Just in general, as someone who is super eclectic, I would say if I were just asking like what could I just go BUY that would be flexible enough that I could probably make it work... my suggestions would be Timberdoodle and Oak Meadow. Oak Meadow is pretty textbooky, but they bring in a lot of creativity. Limit the number of subjects you choose and do a couple in a totally different, looser way just to keep it from feeling overwhelming. Timberdoodle has their grade leveled kits and they have a lot of BALANCE. You can have a good life and use them. They're going to use MUS or TT for their math. What is she doing for math now and what were you wanting the T4L for? Math and LA or everything?

[Mom of Heathens]

I am honestly open to anything. She wanted to try the T4L for the 4 basics. I personally don't like their reading choices because she's already done a few of them. She is 15 and about to go into her sophomore year I guess it would be. She is completely disorganized, but gets it honest and is pretty introverted except with established friendships. She HATES typing and really hates math. She loves to write, but can never finish things with that. This year has kind of been a grin and get through it year. I don't want that to be her experience for the rest of her years. This was more of a panic and homeschool situation (which she's honestly done better with than traditional) No other disabilities and I usually give her her assignments in the morning. She goes to my parents two days a week for math. I think I covered it all. I will definitely check out the things you said. Sorry for a repeat topic. 

[Mom of Heathens]

And sorry what are MUS and TT?

[PeterPan]

Math U See, Teaching Textbooks. Both have placement tests.

Yeah, look at the Timberdoodle kits. https://timberdoodle.com/collections/curriculum-kits/products/2018-tenth-grade-curriculum-kit  This is their 10th grade, but if something from the 7th, 8th or 9th grade kits appeals to her, pull it up! MOH (mystery of history) for instance, is terrific!! She could start in MOH3, which is included in their 9th grade kit. Talk with them and flex some things up and down. 

Remember, some of the things Timberdoodle uses have audio or dvd components. MOH should ahve an audio, and the MUS math has videos. 

Did they diagnose her with ADHD as well? Did she have full psych evals and do you have paperwork showing her accommodations? My dd has ADHD and it was very important to read that paperwork over and over and really take to heart what it says. For instance, she needs extended time. She needs reduced load. She needs STRUCTURE. 

So for my dd for 10th, that was periodic check-ins and a clear list for the day. That was a plan like here's your list of work for the week (a plan that can actually get done) and you have this thing you want to do on Saturday that is contingent on working the plan. 

There's a person called an educational therapist. They can be called other things, but you might look for one. That way instead of YOU being the one kicking her in the pants, she has an outside person holding her accountable. That person will talk with her once a week and say what's on the plan, are you on the plan, and teach them strategies and ways to work the plan. 

There are some really good places like 360 Thinking and another one Heathermomster used. But tools are only good when they're being USED. So there has to be some energy behind it. You don't have to be the one bringing it, but you can pay someone to do that with her. Structure and follow through, paid follow-through if necessary.

20 minutes ago, Mom of Heathens said:

She HATES typing

It's hard, she can't spell, or she needs an OT eval? She has dyspraxia? My dd has mild praxis issues, not enough to get diagnosed, but they affected her ability to type. I ended up switching her to an alternative keyboard layout (Dvorak, a simple toggle in the language settings) and used Mavis Beacon for mac with her. Well that and I gave her accounts and locked the admin so it only worked in Dvorak. I'm BAD. Bwhwahahahah

Anyways, Dvorak plus hard work took her from 13wpm (non-functional) to 30 wpm in about 2-3 months. I also paid her. I told her she'd get $1 per wpm any month she increased by at least 5 wpm. Now you'd have to up that maybe with inflation, lol. At that time, 8 years ago, that was BIG BUCKS, haha. 

Fwiw my dd still types Dvorak and blesses my name for making that change. At the time I got some really nasty comments from the SO who disagreed, thinking I was a mean capricious witch, blah blah. Well my dd can type now and she's glad she can. And lots of people with significant disabilities can't and only peck. 

We also did metronome work during that time. Heathermomster has posted instructions. You can do it for free. Also check for retained reflexes, because there are reflexes in that hands that, if not integrated, affect the ability of the fingers to move individually, which then affects the person's ability to type. 

So it wasn't one thing, but that's the stuff we were doing.

[Mom of Heathens]

Let me tell you right now that you are my hero of the year. She did have full psych evals. Her accommodations were more time and out of the classroom for tests. When she was timed, she was way below average in most subjects, but when untimed she was above average or average (except math which was right below the average mark)  I used Mavis Beacon when I was still using an old Mac back in the 90's. I forgot all about that. Thank you for reminding me! She can definitely spell...she is a word nazi. Where is the post about the metronome work? Sorry am still learning this forum as I just found it a few hours ago. 

[PeterPan]

There is a search engine, but I really like google site searches. So you put the terms and site:welltrainedmind.com  So I would put in your google bar "heathermomster metronome site:welltrainedmind.com" and you should find it pretty quickly. I made some posts with hers too telling things we did. But really, once you get the concept feel free to modify it to fit things you know are going on. Like for my dd, her biggest needs were working memory, ability to motor plan with her hands while using language, and ability to handle distractions. So we started simply but we worked up till we were doing digit spans (working memory) with the movements (motor planning) with language (me talking with her) with distractions (kid running in the background, tv loud, etc.). THAT is how it all came together where she was finally able to type her writing. She needs a quiet space, but she can hold her thoughts and get them out on to the screen finally.

[Storygirl]

I googled SCT and see that it often goes along with ADHD inattentive type and low processing speed. Does she have these issues? I'm also wondering about the typing and writing. Does she have trouble with fine motor tasks? Trouble with fine motor also can go along with low processing speed. Processing speed can also affect writing.

Just trying to assemble a picture of the things you need to address. Here are a few ideas.

* Create a distraction free environment as much as possible. Give her a checklist of things to do each day. Break larger assignments into smaller chunks. Determine if she works better if she sticks with one subject until it's done for the day, or if it is better for her to break things up a bit. Create her schedule to match what works for her.

* Figure out what she likes and what her strengths are, and be sure to emphasize those areas. When school is always hard, it is difficult to be motivated, so build in opportunities for success.

* Provide more structure for her writing, since she has trouble finishing. Break writing into smaller pieces and provide graphic organizers.

* Even though she is in high school, she may need you to sit near her for a lot or most of her work. This can vary, but I often see homeschoolers assume that by the time the students are a certain age, they should be working independently, and some are not ready. My son with ADHD and low processing (and other things), needs to be kept on track.

*I no longer homeschool. When I did (K-8), I did not use online classes. I think some can be effective, but I think you would have to evaluate them carefully to make sure that she is able to stay on track with the pace of assignments ,and that she is able to keep her attention on the lessons when it is just her sitting at a desk,  interacting with a screen.

* i would not expect that a program that provides every subject boxed together will suit her needs. I would expect to have to pick something for math; something different for writing; another program for literature; etc., tailoring each selection to her needs. A one-size-fits-all curriculum is not likely to fit all of her needs.

*Consider whether you will try to follow your state's high school graduation guidelines or take a looser approach (make sure you know the legal requirements where you live). I would try to choose curricula that were straightforward and easy to get done. First, because that builds in some extra time for her to accomplish tasks without getting behind. Secondly, it gives time in her schedule to do things that are more stimulating -- both school studies that can be electives, and also things to do in her free time.

* Make sure you are documenting what she is doing for the homeschool transcript, whether she intends to go to college or not. I think there can be tension between what is required of a typical high school student and what is reasonable for atypical students. Personally, my goals for homeschooling high school would have been to prepare my students at least as well as the high school would have; meaning I would try to fulfill the basic graduation requirements, even if we did so in a way that is different than the schools do.

*This is a very hard piece, but thinking ahead to life after graduation is very important. What will inhibit her chances of employment? Does she have good social communication skills? Is there a possibility that she will want to go to college? What would that path look like? If not, how shall she develop job skills? Having a part time job may be an important goal. For my one son, employment is likely to be difficult, and he has qualified for vocational rehabilitation through our state and will start a job training program this summer at age 15. We have worried so much about employment for him that it became a big priority for us to make sure he has opportunities to improve job skills from the youngest age.

* Did she have an IEP at school?

[Storygirl]

What did she do for schooling before she entered the private school in ninth grade?

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Storygirl said:

i would not expect that a program that provides every subject boxed together will suit her needs.

In general I totally, totally agree with you. Like to pick up BJU straight, whatever, that will be a fiasco and a waste of money. Timberdoodle has a bent toward things that are hands-on or creative or things that are already pretty ADHD-friendly. So if you want a pretty good starting point on how to be eclectic and have it work, it's going to be a good starting point. And they don't put things wicked early, which also helps. Like they use MOH, but they use it for 7th-9th, not the 3rd-5th that you'll see people doing it around here. You also see people on the WTM boards using MOH later like that, but it tends to be people whose kids are, no shock, ADHD. And if you look, it is conducive to reading aloud or doing together, has literature and hands-on activities. Very easy to make work for other types of learners. And a lot of the Timberdoodle choices will be that way. 

I also think go with your gut. Like if you look at things and think it will be a good fit, it probably will be. And if your gut hedges, roll with your gut.

Timberdoodle sells the James Madison Critical Thinking course and puts it in one of their high school levels, not sure which. We did it and it was really good. The MUS they recommended was good for us. The *reason* it was good was because it taught dd to self-monitor her comprehension. She learned to rewind and watch it again, and that monitoring comprehension is a really important piece for ADHD.

The timberdoodle 9th grade kit includes Bio 101, a dvd set, which we did and enjoyed. We didn't do Friendly Biology, but I'm just guessing when you dig in it will be really practical and within reach and do-able. It comes with a scheduling chart. It includes WWS 2, and that fits with how we used it. I'm a little fuzzy now, but we did WWS1 in either 7th or 8th, I forget, and then WWS2 the following year, I think 9th. So really, like I hate to say great minds and all that, but what they're suggesting is how I did it with dd and it was a really good fit. Super bright, just super ADHD. Like one time it turned out she had made 1600 pins on pinterest instead of doing her school work! I kid you not!

The hardest thing about high school for me, and this is just me, was saying ok this is enough. I tried really hard. And just having btdt, I'm just saying getting the kit, flexing how you use some of the elements, it can really define that and go done, good enough. It stops the endless searching and wondering if you're doing it right. We did some Editor in Chief and they include that. They throw in some fun things like the Extreme Dot to Dots. I spent a lot of time making custom stuff for high school for my dd. She loved what I did, but this could have been good enough. We could have made something like this WORK. Like read it aloud together, flex it, take turns doing the tasks, etc kwim? 

 

[Mom of Heathens]

@Storygirl

Am going to try to answer all of your questions. Let me know if I miss any. 

- She does not seem to have issues wi te h fine motor. Plays piano and picked it up fairly quickly. 

- She does do better with books. She is like me in this way. I do not learn very well from a screen. Multiple studies have shown that the brain (anyones brain) doesn't absorb the information as well. 

- I am following the requirements of the high schools around here. (Kentucky is a pretty homeschool-friendly state) but I do plan to be flexible with it. 

- Her schooling has jumped a lot. We were military and then her father and I divorced. We moved around a lot. The public schools up north were a nightmare to deal with. Then public here for 2 years. It wasn't horrible, but moving around so much made her extremely shy. 5-8 was private school. They didn't have a lot of resources for kids with learning differences. The nightmare of a pediatrician she had before was like oh ADD...here are meds....umm no. 

@PeterPan

I did go with her to both Timberdoodle AND Oak Meadow. Together we built her curriculum for next year. Almost everything was timberdoodle except her PE requirement. We are going to find a book list to play with for a book a month reading together. She will have one period where we can devote time to "delight directed" type stuff. She is fascinated with psychology, so she wants to start with that. She also wants to structure her week to be like her old school where it was blocks, so A day classes and B day classes.

Our public library also has a lot of stuff for homeschoolers...they even host a prom that the kids plan. Have a nutrition class once per month and a teen club and Lego club. It's a pretty awesome library. We are lucky.

 

Thank you both for your amazing help and input. I have been so lost on this journey. I just really needed someone to point me towards a good starting point. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Mom of Heathens said:

I did go with her to both Timberdoodle AND Oak Meadow. Together we built her curriculum for next year. Almost everything was timberdoodle except her PE requirement. We are going to find a book list to play with for a book a month reading together. She will have one period where we can devote time to "delight directed" type stuff. She is fascinated with psychology, so she wants to start with that. She also wants to structure her week to be like her old school where it was blocks, so A day classes and B day classes.

I love what you set up here!! It sounds like it's going to be a great year!! And you've got her onboard and collaborating and giving ideas, which makes it all the better. Yes, she's probably going to have some unique interests. I had my dd reading about the history of comics, the writing of food essays, and she did a lot with costuming. Lee Binz suggests collecting the hours they spend on these self-directed or interest-driven things and letting them collect over 4 years to become units that you put on the transcript. So if a unit is 120 hours (I forget, I'm tired, look up carnegie units), then 30 hours spent each year on something would give you a whole unit. So like she might read intently on it two years and then do a project with it the third, and boom now you have enough hours to assign 1/2 or 1 unit to it to put on her transcript. Doesn't have to be all in one year. 

3 hours ago, Mom of Heathens said:

here are meds

Meds bump processing speed. My dd's ACT scores went up 50%. This is the time to get honest about it and consider them, just saying. My dd didn't start them until, I forget, 16? We waited a long time and really we flexed so much we made it work. But once she started them, she wished she had had them 2 years earlier. Your dd's workload is about to jump dramatically, and the meds could make a HUGE difference. For my dd, that 50% was the difference between NO scholarships and TOP scholarships.

[Mom of Heathens]

She did try a couple different ones. She got very depressed and withdrawn on them. She said it made it harder to concentrate as well. So far we have figured out a cup of tea before math and a cup of coffee before everything else gives her a good kickstart. I know it sounds weird. Maybe it's all in our head. I just know when she's got that shock of caffeine initially in the morning she stays pretty well on task, but she can't do coffee and math together. With nothing she takes FOREVER on the smallest tasks. You can watch her mind leave planet earth. We just moved (houses not schools) last year and my husband fell ill immediately after for nearly the entire year, so we are still working on getting rid of stuff...decluttering. She likes to try and keep the most random stuff ever so her room is a nightmare. We have 4 kiddos, so quiet time is not necessarily easy to come by except in her room. I am currently trying to help her create a calm space for herself that is not distracting. It's been a journey for sure.